Post a Toned Coin

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Lincoln Cents, Sep 9, 2011.

?

What color toning do you like best?

  1. Red

    30 vote(s)
    3.8%

  2. Orange

    28 vote(s)
    3.6%

  3. Yellow

    17 vote(s)
    2.2%

  4. Green

    36 vote(s)
    4.6%

  5. Blue

    165 vote(s)
    21.0%

  6. Purple

    78 vote(s)
    9.9%

  7. Black/Grey

    26 vote(s)
    3.3%

  8. Rainbow

    326 vote(s)
    41.6%

  9. None

    48 vote(s)
    6.1%

  10. Other

    30 vote(s)
    3.8%
Page 166 of 511
  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
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  4. non_cents

    non_cents Well-Known Member

    For a complete toning newbie, could someone help me out with all the abbreviations? I know NT, QT and AT, but am not sure about the rest.
     
    non_cents, Jul 17, 2013
    #3303 + Quote Reply
  5. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
    #3304 + Quote Reply
  6. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    QT
    AT
    QT
    NT
     
    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
    #3305 + Quote Reply
  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    AT = Artificial Toning
    QT = Questionable Toning
    MA = Market Acceptable Toning
    WA = Widely Acceptable Toning (This is my own term that created)
    NT = Natural Toning
     
    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
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  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
    #3307 + Quote Reply
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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I haven't visited this thread in a while, not sure why I did today. And will probably wish I hadn't done this an hour from now, but what the heck.

    Not sure where to start, but it seems that some either have poor memories, or selective memories. But when it comes to toning, exactly who decides what is what ? Any of you, me, somebody else, the TPGs ? I would submit that no matter who it is that decides, it is nothing more than their opinion. Now some will say it is a collective opinion, and I suppose that is probably true. But what happens when you have two collectives, and they disagree ? What do I mean by that ? Fairly simple, I mean what happens when you have two different groups of knowledgeable, or fairly knowledgeable, people who directly disagree with each other on the question of whether or not a given coin is AT or NT - or any of the other abbreviations currently in use ? Which group is right, and who decides ?

    You see that's the problem with toning, there is nobody that can provide a definitive answer, a right answer. And yeah that includes the TPGs, they can't provide a definitive answer either. Yet some derive a sense of safety, of confidence, as long as a TPG approves of the toning on a given coin and puts it in one of their slabs. Can't say as I blame folks for that really, the TPGs are what we have. But that's where memory comes into play. Of course that's also where memory sometimes leaves the game, or becomes selective, and people only remember what they want or choose to remember.

    I've been doing this a long time, longer than most, less than a few others. What is the this I refer to ? Coins in general, but also participation on various coin forums and their predecessors, email lists. But time really isn't the issue because the controversy, or discussion if you prefer, regarding AT and NT has really only been going on for about 15 years. No I'm not saying it didn't exist before that, it definitely did. I'm saying that it has only been widely discussed, for about that long. Of course coin forums have only been around for about those same 15 years.

    And over those past 15 years things have changed. More and more people have become more knowledgeable about toning, some to the point that they think they are authorities on the subject. But I can remember when some of those "authorities" were newbies on the subject, based on their comments, questions, and opinions. And that kind of brings us back to the question of who decides. Who draws the line and says AT, NT, QT, or whatever ?

    So let's say the TPGs decide. If they take a toned coin and put it in a regular slab (as opposed to a Details or Genuine slab) then most folks are willing to go along with that decision, to accept it as being right, so it must be right. But wait a minute, is there actually anybody here who has not disagreed with the TPGs on whether or not a given coin, or even group of given coins, is AT or NT ? Anybody ? If there is I sure can't think of them, unless it would somebody who readily admits that they know little to nothing about the subject and therefore can't say. So what happens when these folks disagree with the TPGs, who's right then ? Who decides ?

    You see, that's the problem. When people disagree with the TPGs it's because they are convinced that they are right and the TPGs are wrong. But then there's the times when they agree with the TPGs, so the TPGs are right. Why ? Because they agree.

    What I'm saying is, there is no individual or group who can decide because it doesn't matter who it is that voices the opinion on if the coin is AT or NT, the only ones that will be right are the ones that agree with them.

    AT, NT, QT - whatever, the only thing that exists is an opinion, a guess ! Unless of course you are the person who doctored the coin. But even then you still have to define doctored - what is and what isn't. Ooooops, another opinion.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 17, 2013
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  10. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg I'm a big fan of the gunmetal gray of unmolested early silver
     
    Mainebill, Jul 17, 2013
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  11. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg
     
    Mainebill, Jul 17, 2013
    #3310 + Quote Reply
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  12. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg no offense but 20 th c presidential coinage just doesn't excite me no matter how nice the toning so here's a couple for the rest of the early guys unfortunately I have a hard time taking pics of slabbed coins with my iPhone
     
    Mainebill, Jul 17, 2013
    #3311 + Quote Reply
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  13. bahabully

    bahabully Junior Member

    Hey Cremebrule... unsure I know what I meant by 'mother nature',, morgandude referenced it as a natural process that occurs between a coin and sulfer, like that which exists in an album often times and under the right conditions. So, had some fun with the newly introduced term ; )

    I don't call any of the coins I sell or that are in my collection, or that are raw, or that are slabbed NT. I call them toned, and generally don't even call that out. I classify coins: Date - Series - Condition........ if toning exists, then either ask me my opinion or judge yourself. If you ask me my opinion will give it as MA or QT, and also tell you that I am no where near an expert and to check with Lehigh, or Shane, or Doug on CoinTalk if you want a better opinion that I could offer.

    Personally, I enjoy both of what I feel are MA and QT coins in my collection. I have heard before an interesting quote... "skin grows on coins, QT today, NT in time"... so holding a few monstor QT's in my collection is kinda like buying 5000 shares in a penny stock imo. Put em' in an album, put the album in the attic, and let'em erode as mother nature intended.
     
    bahabully, Jul 17, 2013
    #3312 + Quote Reply
  14. bahabully

    bahabully Junior Member

    I agree with 'nearly' all of these. I think there were 4 or 5 that I would have put either up or down the scale one notch. That said, my agreement is not based on knowing, only guessing.
     
    bahabully, Jul 17, 2013
    #3313 + Quote Reply
  15. gbroke

    gbroke Naturally Toned

    Although this is true, in some cases you have to give credence to overwhelming circumstantial evidence and common sense. When it comes to certain "toned" coins, an educated opinion is as good as fact.

    For example, if you flip a coin 1 million times, and it comes up "heads" 1 million times... I would guess it's a two-headed coin.
     
    gbroke, Jul 17, 2013
    #3314 + Quote Reply
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  16. bahabully

    bahabully Junior Member

    What if you pass the exact same coin to someone else, and they flip the coin 1 million times and it comes up 80% tails.... then it goes back to guessing, a guess... or maybe a fringe or teamed section of the hobby agree to agree with a guess... lol.
     
    bahabully, Jul 17, 2013
    #3315 + Quote Reply
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ummmm - not exactly. For example, would you say I have an educated opinion ? I certainly think so. I also think you have an educated opinion. So which one is fact when we disagree with each other ? Same thing applies to any two people with educated opinions, or any two groups of people. For that matter it even applies to the TPGs for it is anything but uncommon for them (either of them) to even disagree with themselves, and/or each other.

    That said, I would readily agree that there are some coins where the artificial toning is so poorly done that's it going to be pretty dang difficult to find two people with educated opinions that will disagree about it.

    Also, if distilled water, acetone, or xylene will remove the toning from a coin, then that coin is definitely AT. So yes, there are some artificially toned coins that can be proven to be AT.

    However, conversely, there are no NT coins that can be proven to be NT. That is and forever will be an opinion, a guess.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 17, 2013
    #3316 + Quote Reply
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  18. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    Doug,

    Believe it or not, I actually agree with just about everything you have written in your last two posts. You are correct that we can't say with certainty that a particular coin is NT. The purpose of creating a sliding scale was to simply show that toning patterns and color schemes will increase/decrease the probability that an individual coin is either NT or AT. For example, if you polled 100 numismatists, I bet that 95+ would call the 1962-D Washington Quarter that baha posted yesterday AT. Conversely, if those same numismatists were polled, I bet that 95+ would call the golden toned 1939-D Jefferson Nickel that baha posted yesterday NT.

    But the real problem is not with those coins at the extremes where most agree on the authenticity of the toning, but rather in the middle when only a small majority might consider a particular coin MA (market acceptable). Furthermore, the line of market acceptability can change over time as evidenced by the TPG's with relation to Appalachian Toned Jefferson Nickels, Peacock IKE's, Blue IHC's etc.

    In the end, it really isn't about the TPG's being right and those that disagree about the toning on a particular coin being wrong. It is simply about the fact that a toned coin in TPG plastic is blessed with an insurance policy with relation to financial security and liquidity. This does not mean that every toned coin graded by a TPG is NT and certainly does not mean that each collector should agree with the TPG's opinion. Every collector needs to decide for themselves what they will accept and deem as natural toning. If you see a graded toned coin with what you consider questionable toning, the solution is easy, don't buy it.

    But I will stress to all collectors, be very wary about paying premiums for raw toned coins, especially those that you believe would fall in the middle of my toning scale. Furthermore, I will stress to all collectors, be very wary about paying exorbitant premiums for any toned coin, including those in TPG plastic. And I think that Doug would agree with both of these warnings, though he may be a little more stern.

    Paul
     
    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
    #3317 + Quote Reply
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  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    Did you hear that sound? It was the sound of Greg's point going right over your head!

    This post is deserving of a Come on Man!
     
    Lehigh96, Jul 17, 2013
    #3318 + Quote Reply
  20. gbroke

    gbroke Naturally Toned

    Too much reading for me...back to some eye candy.
    Here is a sliding scale from awesome to super awesome.

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    [​IMG][​IMG]
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    gbroke, Jul 17, 2013
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  21. bahabully

    bahabully Junior Member

    not at all,, I got the point.. and answered it. The point being, not only is NT at best a guess,, that guesses that are offered are often influenced by who has the coin. Which speaks to another aspect of the NT-AT-MA-QT space, and that is credibility of the collector or dealer showing the coin.

    Let's say I posted the 39d jefferson and held a vote of NT or AT.
    Then lets say Gbroke posted an idential coin and held a vote of NT orAT.
    Do you think the tally would be equal ?
    Probably not, teaming and pom-pom's would probably slide the scale to Gbroke's coin. Even it was "identical" I'd guess.
    This credibility of the presentor often makes me wonder if TPG's also watch who submits.
    I've heard Doug say that the grader has no clue who owns the coin or from where it came, however I often wonder because as Doug has also noted in previous posts,,, the credibility of a TPG could be called into question within these type of threads,, where a teamed group or individuals post things like "all your coins at AT crap" and then the same person posts toned coins in TPG plastic.... so essentially the TPG gets hit by someone calling an individuals toned coins "all AT crap", and in same post are toned coins from that person in TPG plastic. Anway..... probably another rathole there, but I find it interesting to see posted like you saying things like that, and then two threads later calling some of them MA, etc....... maybe too much blood in the water for the shark to keep from taking a bite ... lol.

    Good stuff. Excellent content Doug.Lehigh....... er. I mean Cat.Dog........
     
    bahabully, Jul 17, 2013
    #3320 + Quote Reply
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