What's the ethical thing to do?

It's a good point, Tom. I know absolutely nothing about the seller other than he has sold coins to this dealer recently and that he plans to sell more in the near future.

 

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you win some, you lose some....simple fact is if that coin came back as overgraded and worth alot less you would not give him back A SINGLE DOLLAR of what he paid you and you know it.....thinking he owes you something because he knew something you didn't is not only hypocritical but ridiculous....what are you ten year olds trading baseball cards? Suck it up and do your homework next time instead of complaining on here.....i know that sounds cold and heartless but think about my first sentence and imagine him coming to you in a few months telling you that you owe him a hundred bucks because of your juiced up anacs graded coin....you would laugh him out of your house in an instant and you are basically trying to do the same thing to him. Shame.

 

The OP was not the dealer. He was an outside party and thought that the dealer perhaps was unethical based on his knowledge of the deal. He brought the circumstances as he knew them here and asked peoples' opinions on whether the dealer was or wasn't ethical. In the course of discussion, many people have said the dealer was fine for various reasons. Others thought the deal hinky, but once it was clarified that really nothing was known of the actual deal, that it may not have been. There was nothing said about the seller even having any problem with the deal or anything.... just a question of ethics if a dealer purchases something at what may not have been a fair price or deal for the coin.

Nothing wrong with calling that out and having a discussion. I've actually been able to think more about it and have learned some things.

 

And PS.... If for some reason the coin does turn out to be a MPL and is re-graded as such, it would be a nice thing for the dealer to find a way to reward the seller..... but that could also open a can of worms for the dealer if the seller then, and only then, thinks the dealer messed with him. At this point, it is probably left best alone between the dealer and the seller.

As far as the OP, the third party attributer..... he, and only he can determine based on what he knows that he either has revised his opinion of the dealer's ethics and then continues to buy/sell to the dealer, or whether he holds off and waits to see if the dealer does other things that continue to bother him regarding business ethics. The OP has shown restraint in not trying to promulgate who the dealer is. He was only, IMO, trying to find out what the community thought regarding an ethical question.

 

well put Kasia. I thought it would:

a) make an interesting discussion

b) allow me to vent and sort through my feelings in a logical and thoughtful way and

c) make for a learning experience for the people who decided to participate


As to the possibility that the coin re-certifies as a MPL, the dealer can tell the seller that he "did better on the coin than he had thought and for that reason decided to give him (the seller) $X (whatever) as additional compensation." If the seller pries, you can then decide not to elaborate, but suffice to say that you "underestimated the market for that particular coin and felt it worthy of an additional premium to the seller."

How can you get mad at that?

 

guess i missed something but my basic point is the same......the seller then would be the one who would not consider giving the dealer a bump if the coin was overgraded.....all deals are going to have a winner and a loser even if those definitions aren't shared by both parties...unless one side straight up lied to the other as to what the coin was and what it was worth than we gotta chalk it up as a learning experience.......just ask big ed, these things happen....and sometimes to good people. If the dealer wanted to throw a bone to the seller that would be a nice thing to do....and probably something I would do......but he is under no obligation to do so in my opinion...morally or otherwise.

 

no obligation whatsoever. Agreed.

the discussion centered around my wonder of "what did the dealer know?" and "when did he know it?" and "what is the ethical thing to do when he discovers the anomaly?"

 

LOL... that brings back memories. I guess "people have got to know whether or not their [dealer] is a crook."

 

When someone decides to sell something to someone else, typically a price is agreed upon between the two parties prior to money changing hands. As long as they both agreed, and the transaction is finished, the seller has relinquished all rights to future sales or any assumed profits by the new owner.

 

Typically yes, but this is a very oversimplified way of looking at things.

What if the item is misrepresented by the seller?

What if the seller took it to the buyer to have it appraised and the buyer/appraiser misrepresented it?

What if the item is misrepresented by a third party?

What if the sale involves fraud? Stolen property? Is paid for using counterfeit money?

What if the seller has a return policy?

What if a third party, i.e. FeeBay, forces the seller to accept a return?

 

Nickels....
You summoned it up... in a few words..
There are no ethics involved.. , a deal is a deal!
Now, i tell you guys 2 stories which both happened to me within2 weeks!!!!
1 A ex- coin club member came to the monthly meeting with a large bag full of coins, mostly Silver and some Canadian provincial coins. He advertised he wanted to sell them.
remember, EX member which presumes he does know what he is doing.
I looked through his coins and after asked him what he wanted for them... he shrugged his shoulders.
so, I said: would you accept $ 500 for all of them? ( I knew there was at least that much in silver, plus there were 2 1880 25 cent pieces.. reasonably rare and the right variety).
he said: cash?... i counted out 5 one hundred dollar bills and offered it to him. he took the money and handed me the bag with all the coins.
there were 4 witnesses to the conversation and transaction.
Good deal......
about 40 minutes later he comes over and wants his coins back.... sellers remorse!!!
mmmm what am I to do??? legally the deal is done. So I said:L I need to think about it, as we have a legal consummated contract.
so I asked him why??? he said he was hoping to raise some $ as he is very short on cash and lost his job.
I reversed the transaction.

2 i went to a flea market and saw a table with some very old trains, wide tracks. I made the seller, a 79 year old man a deal for all he had there.
paid him and loaded it into my Jeep.
then he said: I have a basement full at home, would you like to buy these also?
went to his home and bought the whole deal... trains, over a hundred locomotives... coming out of my ears... ( posted it on the train forum).. total, all inclusive (flea market incl) was $ 3000.
I have a spare Garage and set all up in there and was hoping to sell them... It started to bug me.. why the heck did I buy these trains????
I had buyers remorse..
2 weeks later the seller came to my door and asked if he could have them back....
we reversed the deal... we both were happy..
he found it hard to part with his life long collection of trains which he collected since age 12.....he was unable to have a decent nights sleep.. it bugged him..
again, legally, the deal was done.

Why am I telling these two stories??????
because in each case both parties knew exactly what they were doing. Both parties were of sound mind.

However, I guess that is where the "ethics" come in.. sometimes also called GREED....
really, I am not so sure why I am telling these stories here... just thought there was some possible relation....

 

I have to agree. I know more then a few people here have bought a coin from a dealer and then later realize it was worth more then the purchase price. So should the retail purchaser give the dealer extra money for missing something? When I accidentally bought an 1844 O double date half with some other coins for $200 I did bring it back to the dealer and asked him about ethics and showed him the coin. His exact words were "Well I'll be. Guess I have a customer for life now huh". It is what it is and i believe the dealer doesn't have to do anything for the seller if it does turn out to be a proof.

 

Cmilladoo, I may be alone on this, but I am one person who would give back, and I have done so. The hundred bucks you mention here is trivial in the op's scenario, and should be far greater than that. No shame on anyone here for their opinions.

 

The OP question is about ethics. The ethical thing to do is acknowledge all information about the coin (by both parties) as the deal is being struck. If the deal is struck "ethically", subsequent information doesn't enter into the deal; the deal is complete.

Most Dealers I've met feel their education and experience entitles them to any advantage gained due to the ignorance of the Seller. Dealers feel they are under no ethical, legal, etc obligation to share any information with the Seller. Are those Dealers "unethical"...difficult to say, but they probably won't stay in business long.

 

I would say that if you have to ask if its ethical it most likely isn't.

 

Doug, it's a discussion forum. That's what they're for, aren't they? And honestly, I thought it was interesting. I certainly wasn't trying to be sensationalistic with my question.

thank you yakpoo! This is the closest thing I have found to understanding and speaking directly to my question. It really hinges upon what was known when the deal was struck as to whether or not it's ethical, and that was my question.

I would expect people's opinions on "the right thing to do" would be different and depend mostly on their own personal point of view. I also don't expect that people would understand what it's like to try to make a living dealing coins.

 

The fact that you helped him attribute the coin after the sale told you the dealer wasn't sure it was a proof. I don't think he has the responsibility to inform the seller that it may be a more valuable coin. If he knows for sure that it's a more valuable coin then that's a different matter altogether. Ethics says he should disclose that.
Just out of curiosity, if the dealer would of purchased the coin say five years or so ago instead of it being a recent purchase, would you still have felt there was an ethical problem with the transaction.

 

at least tell us your take on ethics and share a story or two while you are at it. grandpa=stories