What's the ethical thing to do?

I gotta agree, it's a done deal and end of the story. :yes:

 

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Yes, I realize all of that. That's why I said in my my first post about the warranty/guarantee that it wouldn't apply, and in a later post mentioned that their guarantee is pretty much worthless...

 

Yes, I should have been more clear that my post was meant to agree with you and was written in anticipation that others might not read the link and see that it did not apply.

 

Deal is a deal..
what if a buyer recognizes a scarce variety in a coin and the dealer is not aware of it or does not know it?
would you as a buyer tell the dealer???
Now, be honest!!!
Or would you , the buyer, just simply say: well what a deal I got, serves him(the seller) right and teaches him a lesson to know what he is sellin.
mmmmm

 

...for your 10th post in a little under 2 years, I gotta say that in the end, and in the real world, great post. As morals are morals and some sleep better than others, but in today's time the dealer in this situation did his due diligence by getting an expert opinion... So he should reap the benefits same as if it were a normal cherry-pick. I still think that he (the dealer) should break-off a chunk of his profit to the OP, as he helped get the dealer paid in the end :smile

...and to answer your question with all honesty; heck no would I ever let a dealer know if a potential cherry-pick was about to take place on my behalf. He would obviously still be making his small or large profit on the the sale... Which in all fairness is what he deserves if he couldn't figure it out on his own or do the correct research to figure it out.

I would feel better inside if this situation ended like a PG rated movie, but its life...live and learn, learn and live, but only the Strong Survive.

 

Talkcoin,
Am not exactly a coin novice...
have been on other forums ( Canadian and PCGS) and on the Canadian site it is really sleepy... unless u are in to large 1859 cents.
Other then that, I am actually very much into the rest of Canadian coins. 1858 to 1967. was pushed by a friend who is on here to give it another try. Find it a bit hard to navigate around here. But, time will be on my side...
back to the actual subject, or close to it. last year I walked into a coin dealers store and asked to see the "junk boxes". the dealer is known as rough, shrewed and he claims to know it all.

found a 1892 10 cent, large 9 - Canadian. paid his asking of $ 5 ( for a $ 250 coin)
should I have told him??? I am into varieties....and most dealers are not.

have a great weekend all.

 

Blaubart... What does the Melt Value refer to? ( ein blauer bart...?? ... da gab es mal einen herscher.. glaube ich)

 

Not even close...

 

He (mikenoodle) was the guy who helped authenticate that the coin was a matte proof and not MS as indicated on the ANACS holder I believe? I wanted to quote 19Lyds (for whom I Respect tremendously for helping me recently in attributing a small but sweet cherrypick) as well since he asked the question. There is a lot to read in such a short period of time in this thread. I'm pretty sure, at least from what has been printed, that the OP has no vested financial interest in this deal and only wants to know how he should feel after a deal has gone down in which he was a part of, but outside of his pocket? Correct me if I'm wrong here please?

 

FWIW, thanks to all who have offered opinions. I guess I have my answer as to what CT thinks.

The general consensus is that it's ethical for the dealer to "cherrypick" this seller, and although I don't know if I agree, I can see where you're coming from.

Personally, I think it might be a better business decision to kick the seller a few extra bucks if and only IF the coin certifies as a Matte Proof Lincoln. Then again, I've never been particularly good at running a business, so in the end, I may be the fool.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that he bought the coin without first examining it. If it were a F-15, maybe, but 66 Red on a 16 Lincoln? I always want to look carefully at coins with original mint luster that are approaching 100 years old, but that's me.

Since we all are wise enough to know that the grade on the holder is NOT the important detail here, but it is the actual grade of the coin that should determine the buy price, then we should also understand that in high-end uncirculated grades, and particularly in RED, a point can make a big difference dollar-wise. The only reason to not examine the coin is that you intentionally underbid and hope to snag a great deal.

So that means that if he didn't examine the coin, he likely underbid the buy price or he examined the coin and knew what it was before he bid. In either case, the seller loses by design and I'm not sure that it's completely ethical.

In fairness to the dealer, I must say that at this point, nobody knows for sure what the coin is. It is very likely that the coin is a Mint State coin and not a MPL. There were only 1050 1916-dated proofs made. Many of the business strike coins may have proof-like orange peel surfaces or even the die markers of the proof cent. The edges of the coin seem to be the best way to identify and examining them means cracking a slab that currently adds value to the coin. So what do you do? There is a risk to breaking the coin out. Maybe it won't certify with PCGS or NGC. It's hard to say.

Either way, I have learned a lesson and that is not to be quick to judge. In the end, he may win big and if he decides to share that is his prerogative. He must invest resources to determine what he has and those don't come without some cost. It would be nice to think that it isn't a dog eat dog world, but it is. In the end the man has to make a living, I guess.

 

This is the age old question of caveat vendor vs caveat emptor. Is the obligation of wariness and risk primarily on the buyer or seller?

Sellers think they should always get maximum prices for their coins, even though they are not educated or placed themselves in a position to receive that maximum price. Why should the buyers education be FREE to the seller?

This is a case of being ethically correct to buy as is, but perhaps not wise from a business perspective.

You do not KNOW it's a proof, but you are suspicious. Even if it is, extra value requires additional confirmation through re-slabbing or specialized marketing for it to be realized. But if the seller discovers this, he will be convinced you "ripped him off" whether justified or not.

Might I suggest you purchase it for a slight premium for it's possibility of proof or upgrade relabeling and tell him why you are giving him the premium and the risk and cost of verifying it as such? This way he's assured you have been upfront with him. And if you are right, then you have a tidy profit and a customer who is sure you have been upfront with him.

One caveat, this is based on the assumption he has not hired you to evaluate the collection. If he hires you to evaluate the collection, then your obligation is to tell him what you know. This is rarely the case. Most people simply want to know what you will give them for it.

 

I wrote before seeing similar advice from others. I promise I did not copy it.

 

Well said

 

It refers to the intrinsic value of all the minerals in a human body.

 

jallengomez said

To a degree you are correct. As long as the dealer didn't fraudulently deceive the seller, then bad ethics were not in place. The question would then be whether a seller bringing in a slabbed coin for a dealer to purchase, based only on the seller's knowledge that they have a coin that has been slabbed as such and such and is therefore valuable based on the label, and little coin knowledge otherwise, can expect to benefit monetarily from the dealer's expertise in the way of 'correct' pricing (i.e., a fair purchase price) or whether that seller is simply like any other schmuck who doesn't have specialized knowledge and will simply have to rely on arbitrarily picking a dealer who is ethical as opposed to someone who is a shark and will take advantage of anyone who lacks the same knowledge he has. And does a dealer have any obligation to share the knowledge that all slabbed coins are not alike, in that some slabbing companies are garbage and highly inaccurate, and that others are considered 'top tpgs' and fairly reliable? Or that some slabs were done when companies went through changes and some slabs are actually valued by dealers because it is likely that the tpg misgraded the coin and the coin could actually be a higher grade if re-graded at a top tpg today? Or even a basic concept for numismatists (or at least one that should be) in that you do not purchase the slab but you purchase the coin?

I'm sure there are other considerations, but lets just limit it to these, above, for the scenario as to whether the dealer operated with ethics or not.

So.... is a dealer that buys from sellers who have a decent slab (top tpg) to sell going to educate the buyer that he will be buying not based on the slab but on his own appraisal of what the coin is worth? (i.e., looking at the coin and determining that the coin is fairly graded as slabbed). Or is he not going to educate the seller that you buy the coin and not the slab? What if the seller had a MS67 Red slabbed 1916 cent by SMS or stars or MMM or even a 'Wazoo Coin Slabbing Company' (made up company not known to the dealer at all) instead of ANACS or PCNG or NGC? Would the dealer then tell the seller he couldn't purchase the coin because the slabbing company was unreliable and after looking at the coin, see it probably wouldn't hold it's grade if regraded by a reputable company?

So.... the thing we don't know is who is the seller... Is the seller someone who has no knowledge of coins and simply is bringing in coins he happens to have to get whatever money is offered? And does the seller even have any trust in the dealer? There are so many variables. But I think the main point to ask is is it unethical to buy a coin like this from someone presumed to be lacking in numismatic knowledge.... a 1916 graded high MS state that could be a MPL and not inform the buyer that the dealer will be looking to authenticate it as a MPL and really gain from the purchase?

I think it would be ethical if the dealer had no fraudulent intent and did not deliberately deceive the seller, either by saying something to confirm the grade (like "I'm giving you a higher price than I might have, because this is a really great example of a MS67 Red Cent, and I think I have someone who may be in the market for it") or dismiss the grade by stating or omission (like "yeah, I'll take that. But it may sit here awhile until I get a buyer because it looks like it might be a grade lower to me." Or "Ok, yeah, here's XXX$ - take it or leave it", while silently hoping the seller takes it because he wants to investigate it further for the MPL possibility --- where he could make a much higher profit from it.)

And no, I don't think the seller would have the beef with ANACS. This is a discussion about ethics of a dealer buying a slabbed coin that he may have cherry-picked from a seller. And the seller may or may not be knowledgeable about numismatics.

 

Kasia:

You're right. There are actually a lot of things we don't know here. How much knowledge did the dealer have? How much knowledge did the seller have? It's not uncommon at all for sellers/collectors who specialize in one particular area of numismatics to know more than a dealer, who typically just focuses on the "big picture" world of numismatics. If you don't believe this, then just look at how many dealers out there can't tell genuine errors and varieties from coins with post-mint damage. There has been an underlying assumption in many of the posts in this thread that dealers descend from the mountaintop with their omniscient knowledge of coins, and this simply is not the case. I bet I could take an early Lincoln MPL, slabbed by a TPG as being MS, to 10 different dealers, and the majority of those dealers wouldn't have a clue that it was MPL. In this case, one thing that we do know is that the dealer can't figure it out; he asked Mike, and Mike's not even sure, and he's probably asked other dealers about the coin. That goes to show how difficult the diagnosis is. I'm speculating even further here, but it may be that the dealer didn't even suspect it as MPL at the time of the purchase, and that it wasn't until he showed the coin to someone else that the possibility was pointed out to him. That's why I've repeatedly stated the caveat that as long as there was no fraud or dishonesty this is a good transaction.

​

 

Neither seller, nor buyer have an issue with ANACS??? They have absolutely NO responsibility her, regardless what their slab says. (read a TPG's fine print and conditions). The bare and raw fact is that NO TPG ( unless they choose so) have any responsibility as to what grades etc they assess (see Centsles) . Remember, you are buying an OPINION only. AND, not even a professional opinion! Ohhhhh???
A real professional must go through considerable training and education and must pass important examines. His final certificate certifying him as a professional carries a legal responsibility and liability if he chooses to exercise his qualifications.
BUT, until Governments crack down and establish basic rules, There is absolutely NO legal base, and more important accepted norm on which grades etc are based.

All of you have experienced this in one form or another with graded coins differing from one TPG to another. OR simpler, you think the coin is XF40, and he thinks it is AU50... 2 opinions.... each correct.
Perhaps ANACS did not know better or simply ignored it. It is still their opinion.. and, morals and ethics usually are forgotten when you talk big money.
So what if ANACS would say: ship it back, as a courtesy we change the description and re-slab it at no charge....?

 

Dear Gd where are you?

 

I could be wrong, but it seems like a fairly decent percentage of the replies here are written on the assumption that the seller has little or no numismatic knowledge. However, as far as I can recall, we have only been told the following about the seller-

"Seller takes a coin to a dealer to sell. He has been selling some stuff through this dealer, and the dealer expects to see more of his collection as time goes on."

That text does not paint the seller as someone who does not or would not have knowledge. This is a large point in this discussion.

 

adding a little bit here, from what another poster wrote. We do not know the seller, his own ethics and attitude, some I have known if the dealer came back and said that 1916 66 rd you sold me was a matte proof, here is 200 more dollars to thank you, the seller may say, a matte proof is worth at least 2000 in that shape, you owe me another 800 or I want the coin back, I know some people like that, they would not be happpy with the extra, found money but would think they were ripped off. Another type would be the guy who would be ecstatic with a little extra cash and would sing the praises of that dealer to any other collector who asked him for advice of who to sell to.