Thoughts on counterstamped coins

I don't collect US but found what I considered an interesting coin a few years ago that was priced as damaged. I posted it here and was told it was just that, damaged. That brings up the question of how to collect something that is so easily faked as a counterstamp. Certainly you can avoid coins that have wrong signs like alignment or font style like mine but even then you are risking condemning a really interesting piece because it does not fit your idea of what is proper. As long as all you buy are priced as damaged, perhaps it is OK but sooner or later you will start wanting things that are 'improved' by the stamp and that is where I have to hesitate.
http://www.cointalk.com/t155048/

 

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There is a fine line sometimes between legitimate and fantasy counterstamps dougsmit but in time the diagnostics become clearer and more obvious. As in any other area of numismatics the more examples you're exposed to the more you learn about them. I've researched and collected counterstamps for as long as I can remember so I'm comfortable with making those determinations. Of course I can be fooled, but I've made it a hard and fast rule to never buy anything that raises the smallest red flag. Probably saved myself a lot of money over the years.:smile

Bruce

 

I remember you posting this stamp before Frank and thought at the time that it may actually be something other than "Tamallo". Not having the coin in hand it's hard to tell but could the caption actually read "I Am Ajjo"? The first "T" almost resembles an "I"(at least from your picture) and that the two retrograde "L"s were used for "J"s as the issuer had no "J" punch. It doesn't seem likely that he would have punched the letter backwards twice without realizing his mistake. It appears that two different size punches were used so he may have had two incomplete sets at his disposal. None of the possibilities...including "Tamallo" are in any references that I have, but there are many times more undocumented counterstamps than documented ones. Just a thought.

Bruce

 

Bruce

Thanks for the thoughts.

I guess I have to re-think it.

 

Most here are under the impression that countermarks detract from the coin. But, physically speaking, nothing is subtracted. In fact, additional information is actually being added! Your large cent now has a big ugly stamp on it, but know you also know that it was in Albert Albertson's metal shop in the mid 1840's. That kind of information is invaluable to a real collector.

BRandM, what you do with counterstamps is real numismatics, real research. It's much better than merely filling holes in a book or entries in a registry.

Here is an ancient that might interest you. It was struck under Titus in the 1st century, but recarved and revalued by the Ostrogothic in the 6th century AD.

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ROME. Titus. As Caesar, AD 69-79.
Æ As (20mm, 9.84 g, 6 h)
Rome mint. Struck AD 77-78.
Retarrifed under the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy as 42 nummi, 6th century AD.
Laureate head left; XLII (= mark of value, 42 nummi) carved before bust
Spes standing left, holding flower and raising hem of skirt
For host coin:cf. RIC II 1101. For revaluation: cf. Morrisson, Re-use 19; cf. MEC 1, 76 (Vespasian)

Ex Giamba Collection (Classical Numismatic Group 82, 16 September 2009), lot 1139
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Thanks for your comments Ardatirion and for posting the carved Roman coin. I guess in a way you could call this a counterstamp, closer to an engraved coin but with the same purpose in mind. I am interested in counterstamped Romans but unfortunately know nothing about them. If I could educate myself at least to a novice degree I would be more comfortable buying a few common ones to start. With the exception of a good collection of Irish political stamps, I have very few non-U.S. pieces. Are you aware of any good references in regard to counterstamped ancients, particularly Roman coins? I think it's about time for me to go from a passive observer to an educated collector. Thanks again.

Bruce

 

I can't think of c/m's on Romans after the first century. There are a lot of stamped Claudius era and a few from the 68-69 war period. Who has a 2nd century or later coin? Greek c/m's are much more common.


GERMANICUS & DRUSUS, SARDES, LYDIA
My favorite c/m replaced the entire legends on both sides with a donut shaped stamp. Most of these are worn but mine is worse than some I have seen.



Nero Claudius Drusus sestertius with the NCAPR c/m of Nero


A barbarous Claudius sestertius was c/m'ed DV accepting it for circulation at half face or a dupondius

 

For Roman Provincial, there is the impeccable monograph by Christopher Howgego (Greek Imperial Countermarks. London. 2003). That should be relatively easy to find. The best reference for countermarks on Roman Imperial coins is the Pangeri collection (R. Martini. Collezione Pangerl contromarche imperiali romane [Augustus-Vespasianus]. Nomismata 6. Milan. 2003). It shouldn't be difficult to use as a catalog. Unfortunately, if you want a more detailed discussion, you may find the Italian challenging.

These ought to be a good starting place.

 

Thanks Ardatirion. It sounds like a good starting point for me. I need to educate myself about these pieces before I even think about collecting them. I appreciate the information.

Bruce

 

halfcrown George 11 1731 roses and plumes on reverse---countermark---sarah Kirkham born june 24th 1783----I wonder who was sarah and did she have a good life--

 

you could try Ancestry.com or (assuming she lived in the United States) perhaps the Daughters of the American Revolution's data base (in case she was related to someone involved in the Revolutionary War).

Very cool coin and it would be interesting if you could find out who she was.

 

Me, too! That is one of the special things about some counterstamped (or in this case, engraved) coins. I wonder who she was, what she experienced, and how her journey through life ended. We will probabaly never know the answers, but it is nice to imagine. Of course, in this case you have enough details to perhaps find out a few things about her.

 

And....those pics of counterstamped ancients are fascinating. It is amazing how much they could do back then - from raised letters (I suppose it was easier to cut a punch like that back then, rather than have the letters raised on the punch and incused on the coin), to replacing the entire text around the circumference of a coin. I will have to look into getting a few examples of these.

 

The basic process of coining we use today was invented over 2500 years ago. It's considerably more sophisticated today but the elements are all the same: refining ores, creating alloys, casting and machining blanks, engraving dies, and striking. It was all being done by our ancient forebears.

 

I've always wanted a "Houck's Panacea: Baltimore" Bust half...

That's the only c/s that really interests me.

 

Outside of the historical aspects of the counterstamps. I regard all of them as damaged. Just my opine, ya know. :devil:

 

IMHO - 99% of counterstamped coins are simply damaged coins. You can have them.

The ones that do interest me, were the ones that were made for a more significant purpose than advertising or self promotion. For example, the coins in France stamped with the Cross of Lorraine during the German occupation.

 

How about when when Carthage completely destroyed Akragas in 405 BC and placed a countermark on the old, worn AE coins in circulation?


These are usually at least this ugly. Here the crab from the original almost looks like it is eating the head in the c/m. Some examples show a bold c/m and no trace of the crab under it. There is a huge difference in opinions on the price of these according to whether the seller believes it is rare and historical (it is) or damaged (that, too).

 

I like it Doug.

IMHO - That's another good example of a coin whose historical significance outweighs the damage done to the original coin.

 

That's one of the nice ones Brian. They're fairly common, as counterstamps go, but very sought after and a bit pricey. I was fortunate to get ahold of one about ten years ago when they went for considerably less money. I paid about $225 for it which is a bargain basement price for them today.
BTW, I'm working on your "Royse" stamp right now. It's unlisted but maybe I can find out something about it. I'll get back to you soon.

Bruce