Here's a newp 21 peace...gtg if you havent alreasdy seen it posted elsewhere

omg

 

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That is obviously not my pet peeve...well just leave it that as I dont want to argue. And no I was not saying age determines knowledge.

 

Here is a reply to my question from THE Peace dollar authority for those that might still incorrectly think that 21s luster the same way as the rest of the series:

"However, 1921 Peace dollars, mostly those from the first day of production, are likely to have subdued luster or even satin-like fields. (See sample, below.)

This presents a conflict between broken luster and the coin’s original, and normal field. Since a new dollar die had a satin-like field, and Peace dollar dies were not mechanically polished, a perfect coin (proof or production strike) from a new die would have had virtually no luster, and could easily be mistaken for a circulated or over-dipped coin.

Second, relief variations get in the way. Relief is characteristic of striking conditions and mostly is ignored by the grading places, but collectors show a strong preference for well struck dollars. Thus, poorly struck coins even those free of most marks, bring less satisfaction to the owner.

The coin above is a good example. If a grader does not understand what a new die surface looks like, he/she will reasonably conclude that the coins has been circulated and dipped to “…within an inch of its life.” (As Grandmother said before she took a switch to my bottom for saying a bad word in church one Sunday. I thought I was being “Biblical.”) Further, differences between abrasion and die surface can be confusing for many." R W Burdette

 

I'll tell you one thing... I knew a lot more about coins when I was 16 than I do now (fifty plus years later). Of course, back then, there wasn't near as much to know.

 

I really like that '21. The Red Book Professional Edition (2009) describes this "flat spot" and "grainy appearance" on pg. 241.

 

Not to add heat to the fire or anything but the coin you posted is a Matte Proof 1921 Peace Dollar, NOT a business strike. Matte Proofs were known to have subdued luster and granular, satiny luster.

 

I didnt post it I quoted it. I think the idea being that that is the general look a lot of business strike p$ also ended up with. With which I would agree.

If you look at what luster really is, it is wear on dies in the middle stages of a dies life. Early die life will not have as much luster but frost and a great strike will affect it even more. Luster becomes important because it acts as the the layer of proof that a coin has not circulated. And because its shiny. But all it really is is middle die state abrasion.(This is a general statement on luster in all series not specifically peace dollars.)

 

Boy I wish I had the answer. I've seen 21s grade all over the place. That PCGS MS64 you posted is very similar in appearance to an OGH PCGS MS63 I have, right down to the gold tone on the front, the neck mark, and the similar distribution of marks in the fields. Mine may be a slightly better strike, but that's not bad either (technically this doesn't affect grade, but I think it affects a lot of graders). On the other hand, IMHO, your NGC MS63 looks nicer yet. I have to admit I'm confounded by 21 Peace grading.

 

Yeah I am having a tough time. I dont want to think myself or anyone that isnt a grader knows better than a pro grader. But its not like theres an owners bias here. Both coins, and many others, were/are available to me or anyone else so I am obviously pickng the one I truly feel is the better one. I am not gonna lie in addition to liking it I feel the 63 I purchased has a shot 64. I also feel the luster is there for a 21. The consensus ATS agrees as does RWB that 21s dont luster like other years, ive known this for year so the YN who suggested luster is the issue along wiht a few others I think need to reconsider. Again this is via photographs and I know anything can happen in hand including hairlines which is my #1 concern now. But I would say that in 500-600 coin purchases I have made over the years I would confidently say that I have been surprised by less than 10 vs the pictures I looked at and maybe as few as 3. In fact I can only think of 2 off hand and one was an AU 55 Mexican Dos Pesos which had really bad photos and I knew was a gamble going in. I have very advanced photography software(No photoshop is not even close to high level software) that I run some filters on things when analyzing a coin and I am confident with my picture interpretations. But I will post again once the coin is in hand to see where things end up. In any case I enjoy the general conversations in regards to 21 Peace dollars, they truly are my favorite series and year. I almost feel that unlike other coins they are kinda undefined in a sense.

 

I wonder who that edited could be?.............

You really know how to :dead-horse:, don't you?

 

edited. I just think that you should reconsider what you know of luster specific to the 21 Peace dollars. As described by a few people, luster is a result of die erosion. Which affects strike quality but has the side effect of making the coins shiny at the high points, which is deemed favorable because we silly creatures like shiny things. Similar to how tarnish is most cases is a bad thing but in some cases results in rainbows we like. Coins with great strikes were possibly minted the first day on fresh dies and possibly with higher pressure as detailed by RWB's great write up on the subject. And as a result end up with a satiny luster as opposed to an erosion based luster. This is impossible to photograph. My 21 has it under the lavander toning and its really something to look at. I prefer it over traditional luster tenfold. Based on the strike and filtering thru some exposure settings I think the coin in my OP has a good chance of being such a coin. This satin luster doesnt cartwheel the way morgans do It kinda glides around the coin in a smooth transitionay way, like silk flowing. I cannot tell where your 21 is at in regards to this because it is overlit in the same way that I overlit my newp(which you laughed at when I did it). Hard to tell if it is satiny in that lighting. But your has a decent strike a little above average and so its also a candidate for said satin, but it doesnt sound like you are aware of it yet based on your posts on peace luster.

As an example, calling a satiny early struck 21 to be subdued in luster is like saying a DMPL morgan is luster free or pointing out they dont cartwheel in the light.

 

One last thing to consider which I keep forgetting to mention. I believe the seller used 2 different light types in the pictures I posted. This too changes certain characteristics.

 

I'm intrigued... what software do you use?

 

It might interest some to read these 2 older posts on the subject of luster and toning between the Peace and Morgan. Most is not the state of the die ( IMO) as the flow lines from the strike.

http://www.cointalk.com/t190241/ difference in toning between Peace and Morgans

http://www.cointalk.com/t126215/ Microscopic comparison of luster Peace-Morgan, esp. post 17

 

Ive had a few pro level apps over the years but of recent years use Ive preferred something called Capture ONE. People think Pshop is the end all but there is stuff out there ad agencies and movie studios use, they arent using adobe. Capture ONE is not as expensive as the other stuff ive seen and I highly recomend it to anyone looking for a Pshop alternative.

http://www.phaseone.com/

 

I've neither used nor ever owned PhotoShop.

 

I too have seen 21's graded all over the place with no reason why one is higher than another. I had a 63 in a OGH that I thought was a hands down 64, NGC gave it a nice MS 62. Sometimes it doesn;t make any sense.