1897 0 Morgan. Discussion why grade is so low.

Just to be clear, I don't believe for one second that they are making mistakes at all. I am 100% convinced, as are many others including former graders and numismatic authors, that they are quite intentionally grading AU coins as MS.

 

First of all it's not a conspiracy at all, never has been. Instead it was/is an intentional changing of their grading standards. And yeah, I know a lot of people find that hard to believe. But to a very large degree that's because they don't want to believe it.

But grading standards can and do change, and they have changed several times over the years. And those are documented changes, changes that were acknowledged and admitted to having taken place by the people who made the changes. And if it has happened several times in the past why should it be so hard to believe that it has happened again ? I mean, I just don't understand the logic of that !

And no, those changes in the past did not destroy anybody's credibility at all. If anything, the changes increased their credibility because that's what people wanted. When you give people something they want, they tend to be happy with it - not unhappy. The TPGs make changes all the time, and not just to grading standards, but to just about everything. They acknowledge this, they admit it, they even do press releases about it. And it's almost always because that's what their customers wanted them to do - so they do it.

Now if you, or anyone, doesn't know what those changes were and when they took place then you need to study up on the history of grading.

 

No doubt. But when people who were actually doing the grading for the TPGs write it about it having happened, and when you see it with your own eyes, it's gets pretty hard not agree that yeah, it happened - again.

 

Let me ask you a question, how do you define "market grading" ?

There are a lot of people, and I mean a lot, who are very knowledgeable and experienced collectors who say that the TPGs do not grade coins, that they price them. That's what they call market grading. (I am not one of those people btw)

Now if that is the case, then it must be admitted that they do it to all coins, not just some of them. And if the price goes up then the grade goes up - if they are pricing the coins instead of grading them.

And yes, pretty much everyone agrees that the TPGs routinely and very intentionally over-grade coins of high value. You'd be hard pressed to find an experienced collector or dealer to disagree with that. But that is an entirely different thing than what we are talking about.

 

OK eddie, so where does it say price anywhere in that definition ? Surprise, surprise, it doesn't.

Yeah, it says traded. But that doesn't mean that you, or anyone can else, can assume that traded means price, because that is not what it means. What it means is that the grade assigned by PCGS is the grade that the marketplace is willing to accept.

Now who do you suppose the marketplace is ? Or how do you define marketplace ? Well, the marketplace is composed of collectors and dealers, and a large part of those people just happen to be customers of PCGS.

So what you have there in that definition is PCGS admitting in writing that they base their grading on what their customers, in other words the marketplace, want.

Do you really think I just make stuff up or something ? I don't. I base my comments on evidence, things that I can see, hear, read, and observe. Things that are real, things that are facts and not opinions.

And no eddie, I do not use nor do I grade coins based on technical grading. I have used the market grading system since it was invented by the ANA back in 1986. And market grading has nothing to do with price, never has.

And, you see, that's the problem. Some people think that's what market grading is. And they do that because they make an assumption that because the market is used then that must mean money or price is involved. But it doesn't mean that at all. No more than it does when you assumed that "traded at" means money or price is involved. Market grading has nothing to do with price. The term was merely adopted to use so that it could be differentiated from the old grading system which was technical grading. That's the difference - it's two different grading systems. The old system was technical grading, the new system (the one we use) is market grading. And they are as different from each other as day is from night. But neither one has anything to do with price or money, and never did.

 

Not sure what you mean by their marketing, but I agree, they are not market grading. Quite some time ago I called what they are doing value grading. To me that is most accurate term.

Don't you think they would have said price if that's what they meant ? As I said I understand why some could think that because they associate marketplace with money. But read the statement again. The key phrase there is - "A numerical grade that matches the grade ......" . - "Traded in the marketplace" merely refers to what most people would grade the coin themselves. A grade that the marketplace is willing to accept in other words.

My comment was not meant to imply that you were. But rather to explain that I don't make it up at all, but instead that I read what they say themselves.