So I was at the Coin Shop yesterday, took in some mini gold novelty coins that I had and didn't want anymore, along with a few other items that were just collecting dust so to speak. One of those items I had to get rid of was a 1979 S Type 1 PCGS PR-69 DCAM Quarter. I don't even know where I got the coin to be honest, and after looking it up on the PCGS site, valued at 19.95 when I looked it up, figured I could get about $10 for it. The gal proceeded to explain to me that they don't generally pay much if at all over Bid price in the Greysheet for graded coins. As our conversation went on, I started to realize something - It's quite literally pointless to "slab" modern coinage from the mint. While there are exceptions to this, for the most part most coins that are minted will get 69 - 70 grades! In my box of mint sets and proof sets, and everyone else's out there, we have the same coins just not graded. EBay seems to be the place where the grade makes the price skyrocket. I got a 2008 S Proof Bald Eagle Clad Half dollar at 15% over Bid price, at $16, NGC PR69 Ultra Cameo. (I quickly removed the coin from the plastic coffin it was in to put into a snap tite and then into my collection) On EBay the same coin is going for $35 all because of the grade it's been given. Ungraded range from $15-30 roughly, which isn't a bad price at all, but I'd be willing to bet that those coins if sent in for grading, would receive the exact same grade! Errors, Pre-1964 rare coins, varieties, older silver and gold coins - those I understand getting them graded and certified authentic. Isn't that the entire reason for the grading services in the first place? While I'm sure that this has been said in any one of the hundreds of grading threads on here, the wealth of knowledge on here has helped me with coming to this conclusion. "Buy the coin, not the slab" is one of the best sayings in the coin world!
You have some good points that people often miss about grading. Grading adds no value to a coin, NONE, period. A graded coin is worth no more than that identical coin without the grade. The assurance of a professional opinion on a coin's grade and authenticity can make the coin easier to sell, but rarely will it make it sell for more, unless it's rare in its grade or is just so commonly faked that nobody will touch a raw one with a ten foot pole (Trade dollars come to mind lol...) Ebay you do see grading improves how fast you can sell something for, and sometimes for how much, because people like the assurance. Don't expect this to help much on modern common coins though. That's not to say grading has no value; it's just that it's a service, not a product, and should be regarded as such. The value in the service does not attach itself to the coin in most cases. If you're wondering why some coins get graded where it doesn't seem worth it, there's really 3 basic reasons: 1. Wishful thinking; someone is hoping a coin merits a high grade that can make it sell for more. 2. Competition for registry sets (PCGS and to a slightly lesser degree NGC); people like competing for having the best possible registry set, and some will send dozens of common coins hoping to get the highest grades possible. Lost track of how many graded Roosevelt dimes I've seen graded, that aren't even worth the grading fee lol... 3. Some people just get almost all their coins graded out of habit, as a way to preserve them or store them better, or just because they think it's the thing to do, or any combination of these. Most modern coins there isn't much of a point, and modern proofs are minted to such high standards that high grades are common anyway (especially modern US proof commems). Some business strike moderns may be hard to find in high grades in the future since few are bothering to save and preserve them; but you won't see them appreciate beyond the cost to grade such for quite a while (2 or 3 generations at least), so unless you're into very long term investing probably not worth it. Classic coins, commonly faked coins, coins of high value and/or popularity, these I can see as being worth it. Moderns, not so much (unless they're of high value, VERY high grade and for moderns usually not worth it if it's below 69 or 70, or commonly faked, or any combination of these). I got most of my modern commems graded but more for convenience of storage and preservation than anything else. Unless you have a compelling reason to have a given coin graded, save that money for more coins instead. Don't pay for a service unless you really NEED it lol...
I tend to forget about the registry set stuff, that I can somewhat understand. And I agree with classics, etc as I said above. I can understand getting the Commem's graded, to an extent if people aren't keeping them well, etc for future generations to be able to find great coins. But at the same time, the OGP does wonderfully well at keeping the coins preserved. I just cracked out the George Washington halves from their OGP, and they were still pristine, and they'be been in the packaging for 31 years now. I watch the Coin Shoppe and HSN shows to laugh at how much they charge for something getting a perfect grade, that if the person buying said coins went straight to the source (US Mint, etc) they would likely get the EXACT same coin! To each there own, I'm not hating on people that get their coins graded, it's their collection and decision. Just baffles me at what gets sent in for grading these days.
Virtually all US commems minted since 1982 in their original packaging should get 67/68 at least anyway, and should practically be considered an error if they don't lol... I've had a few graded for reasons of convenience and only ever had one come back worse than a 68 (and that I'm not entirely sure wasn't damaged by a previous owner taking it out of the capsule for some reason). HSN is a terrible place to get coins; they overcharge on everything. It's almost funny to watch until you think of all the people turned off on the hobby after finding out that they got ripped off. I've only got one "perfect" (well MS 70 isn't truly perfect btw, it's just as close as you can get) grade, a 2013 silver Chinese Panda. I can see the allure (and agree with the grade in this case, just can't find anything wrong anywhere on it), although to be honest I've looked very closely at some 69's and sometimes even 68's and I can't tell the difference (68's I can find the defects with a magnifying glass usually, but many 69's I honestly can't see how they didn't get a 70). Basically my advice to collectors is, if you can't see the difference, don't pay for the difference! P.S. Just thought of another good reason to get coins graded even if they'd not otherwise be worth it; it's a good way to learn to grade yourself, by giving you coins to compare and see how they grade. I know some people that try to put together "reference sets"; they take a given type of coin, and try to find it in a range of grades so they have a basis of comparison (buying a book of grading standards is probably a cheaper way to do this lol but I can see how it would be useful to have a physical coin to compare it to). Moderns I have a harder time justifying this though, but I do like looking at my graded commems to try to figure out how it got the grade it did.
The only reason that people go to the trouble to slab modern coinage is they are hoping for the coveted 70 label for a quick flip. In reading your second paragraph, I don't know of any dealers locally near me who pay anything significant over bid price from the CDN for slabbed modern stuff, including modern proofs.
I don't know if I'm in the majority or the minority, but I purchase a coin for 1 reason only.......because I like it for 1 reason or another. I don't care what it will be worth in the future, I don't care what it will grade. I buy it for me because I like it right now and I want to enjoy it. I don't buy into the obsession with having the "best" or "premium" or "artisinal" or "hand-crafted" or all of the other BS marketing jargon that people fall for. I like my coins to be in their original packaging because I can take them out of their capsules and hold them in my hand and look at them up closely and see the light reflect off of them at different angles. That's right.........I said it. I actually touch my coins (by the rim, of course). I don't like graded coins because the slabs are easily scratched and nicked and that impedes my view of the beauty of the coin. Even an unmarred slab generates imperfections due to the plastic itself, as the light reflects off of it. I agree with most of the comments here thus far, in that there are reasons to have some coins graded, but I don't see the point with most modern releases.
In addition to protecting coins, the reputable TPGs (NGC, PCGS) also insure the grade. This insurance "securitizes" the coin, making it more liquid/desirable in the marketplace. You're right, it makes little sense to securitize coins of no great value (e.g. common moderns). However, if I had a 1999 silver Delaware proof that I felt would grade PF70...I might send it in.
When I collected modern U.S. Mint coins (ASE-UHR) I found it was easier for me to open a box of 20 than to open 20 boxes and put them back together again. Matter of fact, I sold some of those empty boxes for some good $$$. I bought the coins first then if they were good enough they went to PCGS. You are correct though, if they ain't a 69 they are probably a 70....99.125% of the time
You got that right, that's one of the disadvantages for sure. I got a coin once and I sent it back. I told the guy it looked like he had played hockey-puck with it.
While I agree with the basic principal, the markets clearly prove otherwise. Coins that are graded DO sell for premiums over coins of equal grade that are ungraded. Therefore, they do add value as far as cost. Not as far as numismatic value, in my opinion, though. Guy
I basically agree. Although you can sell raw coins to people, sometimes it is better to have the coin slabbed and graded, at least IMO. For example (using my own experience) I wanted to have an experience in slabbing, and I don't have the experience to buy coins that are probably valuable and then slab them. My grading skills are not really developed. I do, however, sometimes "win" coins, or buy coins raw, or find things in CRH. I found a 1999 WAM, as well as a number of clashed die dimes and a dropped letter quarter. Of those, it seemed to me to have the 1999 WAM, the dropped letter States quarter, the most extreme clashed modern dime I had (of 8 or so), an old french coin, and a couple of large cents (to see if they would grade the way they were sold to me by a well respected dealer). Of these, I made the mistake of asking the Grading Company to conserve the cent, so the grade dropped and I spent more (which they said they would fully reimburse me for, but they didn't fully do so) to deal with it. However, from what they did reimburse me for, it was still less than what the actual cost of grading/conserving would have had me out. Anyways, back to the story.... Of those graded. I have since sold two of the coins. The French one for 90.00 --- I had been told by several dealers that it was going to be more like 35.00 value, but I found someone who appreciated it graded at it's grade and who bought it for the 90.00 I was wanting. The other was the dropped letter one. It came back as a MS66, which was not the valuable part to the buyer, but it ensured that it was gradable as well as a true error. I won't say exactly how much I got for it, but it was in the range of a couple of Benjamins, give or take some lesser amounts. Now, did I gain value from slabbing the moderns (3 coins, total)? I would say yes on two counts. Although it is possible that I could have sold the quarter as an error for the same amount, it's also possible that the buyer was actually impressed with the high grade it had, as it maintained it's clean appearance. But, more to my thinking, it preserved and maintained the coin in the highest grade possible, and it prevented the coin from being lost among other non-valuable coins I had so it would not get tossed back or spent. Same with the dime and the WAM. In fact, I got all the nearly all the clashed dimes I got within a roll or two I searched. Which says to me that likely, someone had them, and for whatever reason, they either forgot to keep saving them, or someone took all the coins and just put them in as not worthwhile for more than face value. Now the dime may not be super valuable, but I don't mind keeping it. And if it turns out that years from now, people are more keen to collect those, it is possible to still make a profit from it.
I strongly disagree with the op. Finding non-satin ms67+ dimes from the satin mint set years is tough and they are legitimately rare- they are legit numismatic treasures and should be treated as such. I'd like to hear from cladking on this one.
I think it depends on the series for instance ike dollars are all over the place in terms of grades and value, gem coins are very hard to find thus bring big premiums while average graded coins 64 and below can have no premium (excluding rare varieties and errors). As far as ASE's and other coins with much better production quality i see no advantage to having them graded its actually counter productive because it insures many high grade examples will survive much longer than otherwise would. Im certainly not gonna buy any slabbed ASE's because outside of a few select coins they are far too common in high grade to really justify it, anyone with a brain and a loop can put together a gorgeous set. To say that all modern coinage is not worth slabbing is wrong some series and coins are very valuable, if you were to find a 1992 CAM or a Cheerios dollar in your change i guarantee you would want to slab them....
You posted this while i was typing and it is just another good example of why it would be important to slab a modern.
Well while I do like "slabbed" coins as a general rule I can't see slabbing most moderns. All in all I have sent a grand total of........1 coin to be graded and that was partly because it was a R-6 and partly for verification/certification (it was a Morgan VAM) otherwise I find that you can usualy buy modern coins already slabbed for less then the actual slabbing cost so why send any in?
Danr and Coinguy-Matthew: You guys are talking about the rarer of modern coins, and for those I can understand slabbing them. I do not disagree that you or any collector would want to slab those that stand out or are of a potentially high grade that are hard to come by. I even said in my op that there are exceptions to my opinion that most modern coins shouldn't and have no reason to be graded. I think for the most part my point didn't come across as I had meant it to. Slabbing modern proofs and mint issues in my opinion is what is pointless with the exception to rarities and errors. When nearly everything that comes from the mint is in such great condition, all people are paying for is a grade, which if they own a non-graded coin of the same type, they more often than not own the coin of the same grade. Just last night I was watching Coin Shoppe - for laughs as always, and they were trying to get people to pay out the wazoo for "MS-65RD" Lincoln Bi-Centennial cents, first day issue and opening ceremony coins. I can pull out my Mint Sets, send them in for grading, and would probably, if not certainly, get a higher grade on my coins. They may not be first day issue or opening ceremony, but just by comparison, the coins I have are equal if not better than those in the slab. That is they type of point I am making. Hopefully that makes sense.
