My first ancient - Constantius II Falling Horseman

Wow, lol. That's EXACTLY what I thought when I first researched the motto! I wondered if FEL TEMP REPARATIO had the same colloquial ring to the Romans that "Let the good times roll" has to us.

 

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What do you guys think of the market value of this piece? It appears uncirculated, but there seems to be a bit of verdigris on the reverse. What I like about this coin is the depiction of the war scene. I think it's a difficult subject, artistically, and obviously not all the die cutters who made these were of equal talent. This one seems to have nailed it perfectly...

 

This is Antioch which is generally appreciated as the best work on FH coins of the larger module. It is missing a little reverse legend but not a bad coin by any means and well detailed on the soldier and horseman rather than flat in places as is common. I'd call it a $70 coin so I assume the slabber seller wants $150. The photo makes it hard to read the workshop letter (that slab tab does not help either) but I assume you can make it out.


My example from E shop is a bit flat on the bottom but still readable. It was $40 in 1998. The S shop FH4 one has scratches in a not-attractive sandy surface. It was $14 in 1991. It might clean but it might be ruined.

Antioch is not my personal favorite style but there is no denying that they have some nice coins. There are more of them in great shape than most mints. People are paying too much for these common coins but the larger size (AE2) are good looking. There is no reason to pay high prices for the AE4 coins that tend to be crude as well as small but some sellers don't make the distinction.

 

I agree with Doug's points.

I would call that a nice XF John, but with a few issues. I would say its worth VF money. What that money would be would be dependent on the size. If it were a 3 or 4, its not terribly high. If that coin is a 1 or 2, then I would say $100 or a touch more woul dbe the ballpark.

It REALLY bothers me the TPG would slab a coin with verdigris. What are they wanting? People to leave it in the slab until the verdigris just rots the coin away? Good lord, you would think if those people want to entomb a coin, they would have the common decency to make sure it doesn't have active corrosion on its surfaces that will destory the coin if left unchecked. Kind of shows you again how little slabbers really care about the coins, preferring the paycheck.

Btw John, it is a good eye though. That coin has a very fine style in my view, about as good as any LRB gets. Stylistically that coin is a home run.

 

The green "verdigris" spots on that coin are surface adhesions. Nothing to worry about.

 

Thank you gentlemen! The seller is asking $330, but I assumed that was grossly inflated from what little market research I've done. Perhaps I'll offer 50 and we can haggle it into something reasonable, if he's willing...

 

What exactly are surface adhesions as opposed to verdigris?

 

Thanks, I feel a little less PO'ed.

John, I think the first thing you would need to know would be if its a AE1, 2, or 3. That will make all of the difference in the world. An AE 1 in that shape, with that fine style, is a heck of a lot closer to a $330 price than an AE3 would be.

With LRBs, size is EVERYTHING. Without knowing it, you are clueless as to value.

 

Well, ya snooze, ya lose. David Lawrence had it up for sale, but it's been claimed. Here's the picture of the slab for the sake of reference. I don't know if you can determine the size just from that...

Somewhere around the size of a US quarter?

 

Size of a quarter would be a 1 I think. For an AE1, with the style and condition of the coin, $330 is not unreasonable but above my price range for a Fel Temp. If it were a rare or historically important reverse maybe, but not a Fel Temp.

I wouldn't be looking for expensive Fel Temps just yet John. Walk before you run, that is what I try to do in any new field of numismatics. I have never bought a gold coin of a culture until I already had many bronzes and silvers, and knew WHY I wanted the golds. Similarly, I would work on your AE3's and maybe a few 2's of Fel Temps before shooting for AE1 XF's. Maybe once you get into them you will recognize that is a horrendously common type and you want to save your money for another coin.

 

Sage advice. I wasn't really planning to buy it unless you guys thought is was a real bargain. But I am doing a bit of market research as well as numismatic - just to know the playing field.

 

I have never seen a FH that qualified as AE1 (over 25mm). A quarter is 24mm and most of the larger FH coins are 20 to 24mm so firmly in AE2 range. If one happened to be struck extra hard and spread out to 25mm, it probably would suffer from detail loss from too thin metal to fill both dies and certainly would not be worth a premium. $300 is high for the coin shown. It is not my place to shop for you but I found this lesser grade Antioch at $34. Certainly the OP coin is nicer. The question might be how much nicer? Earlier I suggested a slab price would be $150 so that is 4-5x. That would seem enough. 10x? No.

http://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/git...emy_horseman_with_a_lance/140290/Default.aspx

I will point out that the really big dealers rarely have these common coins and would only have one if it were super high grade and price. Finding an equal coin may take some looking so if you must have it now, you pay the price. Unlike modern coins not every type is available in every grade on every day. You buy what you want when you find it. I do not recommend shopping for a specific coin unless you 'need' it to fill a set or satisfy a long standing itch.

I do disagree with medoraman regarding the Falling Horsemen. They are the most common coins that exist in the ancient series. They are not at all common in full size, full legend, full details from a full strike and nicely surfaced all in one coin. That is why they sell from $1 to $300. Where a coin falls in that range is a matter of opinion. There are other coins that are almost always found well struck for which huge hoards of high grade examples have hit the market recently so they sell reasonably in great shape. That is why we suggest beginners pay attention to the market prices for a while before they start buying from anything other than a fully trusted seller who plans to make a little off of you on each of a thousand future sales rather than a killing on this one. Of course we always recommend the fully trusted seller technique rather than the slab as a guarantee of authenticity but that is another topic.

 

Thanks Doug. There's some nice stuff from the Bridgnorth hoard...

 

I never said larger ones with no condition issues were common at all. I didn't know speciafically you would not classify any of these as 1's, (having seen a few quite large ones myself), but knew anything over a 3 in these was less than common.

I think we were agreeing more than you thought we were.

I love the point about not shopping for specific coins. One thing you need to adjust yourself to John is "going with the flow" and buying what is available. Every time I get on Ebay, or go to a show, I literally do not know what I may buy. This is why most ancient collectors have lots of mini collections. We buy coins we can, when we can. You will drive yourself nuts trying to just buy one type of coin at a time, because honestly there will be periods that NOTHING is really available for you.

My last purchases have been:

1. Group of kidarites
2. Group of kushanshahs
3. Sassanian silver
4. Arab Byzantine group
5. Cyrenaica bronze
6. 500 LRB's
7. Group of sassanid and arabic silver

Its very important to buy hoard when you can. A large group of coins will come on the market for some reason. All of a sudden you will think these are "common" coins and not bother to get a few. A couple of years later, they are all bought up, and you cannot find one for sale to save your life. This is another reason to buy what you can, when you can. Can't find a Fel Temp you like but a RR silver is available? Buy it instead!

I know, since I am a hoarder its easy for me to say this. But I have been collecting ancients long enough to see so many coins enter the market, be everywhere for a bit, then are just gone. 10 years ago you could barely swing a dead cat and not hit a nice Shapur I silver. Now? I can't find one for sale hardly. Same was true of so many coins I cannot even name them. Today, I would say Hormizd II is too cheap, since a huge hoard must have been found. If anyone EVER wishes to own a nice early Sassanid silver I would buy one of these today. I will about guarantee they will be rare again in 10 years. I have bought 8 now, and will continue to buy nice ones I find, (so you better hope I don't see the auction as well ).

 

Very interesting stuff to ponder Chris. I'm not sure how thinly I want to spread my collecting though. I started with Constantine II so perhaps I'll stay there for a while and maybe assemble a type set of that era.

 

That's fine, just pointing out in our area you will hit walls frequently based upon what hoards have hit the market. Just be prepared for it, and always keep your eyes open.

I will bet you money most ancient collectors have more than one concentration area they actively work on if coins pop up.

 

It's that way for me. Try as I may, I end up "going with the flow" and buying coins as they are available, whether they fit my current collection strategy or not.

 

I almost mentioned Bridgnorth but most of what I have seen left now are overpriced and/or faulted. The Trier on my page that completed my set of mints was Bridgnorth hoard and $125 but I would not suggest anyone pay that kind of price for a rare mint until the already have a hundred horsemen and Bridgnorth did not have Antioch mint coins (more a Western group). I have not bought any FH since I posted my page. I'm spending foolishly on something else now. I am unusual in that I often buy several coins of the same basic type and then justify it by writing a page of the variations. We all have our individual technique in spending on coins.

 

Is there a more satisfying way to spend than foolishly? I have to thank you for that page, by the way - it's quite brilliant and engaging.

 

Isn't that the truth of it all. :bangg::bangg: