$100 toning premium on this coin.

I will have to say, that is pretty unique toning.

 

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Frumpy grey like this 3 leaves?
Lance.

 

Yes. Frumpy like that.

 

lol

 

We need to dumb down everything for you.

The premiums for toned coins are the result of the open market. There are no price guides, therefore, the premiums can't be artificially inflated.

Please explain why a 33% premium is acceptable but a 300-400% premium is not without using "because I said so."

There are millions of untoned nickels that didn't make it to Teletrade because their value is so low that they are not worth selling on that venue. So to say that half of all Jefferson Nickels are rainbow toned is utterly ridiculous, but that is par for the course for you. The toning premium for each coin can only be evaluated on a coin by coin basis. Some common date rainbow toned MS64 Morgan Dollars are worth $90, some $150, some $300, some $500, and some have values in the thousands of dollars. When you say is it not okay to pay $500 for a Morgan Dollar worth $90, I assume what you mean is that the buyer will be buried in the coin and be unable to recoup their investment. Is that correct?

The fact is that the number of rainbow toned coin for any series is very very low. Is it below 1%? For some series, it certainly is below 1%. And Jefferson Nickels are one of those series. You see Tim, you don't even understand where toned coins come from. Furthermore, you simply ignore all of the coins that are not slabbed. In 1964, both the Philadelphia and Denver mints produced over 1 Billion Jefferson Nickels. Now ask yourself, how many rainbow toned Jefferson Nickels have you seen dated 1964?

How do you know the premiums for toned coins are continuing to rise? And in your expert opinion, when will the bubble burst?

 

You didn't answer the question. He asked you if he got ripped off by paying 6X price guide? My question is, when you say unique toning, do you mean that you have never seen a similar color scheme on a Morgan Dollar?

 

I gotta admit, you got me on that one.

 

Oh come on, you need to show some conviction in your statements. You believe that the toned coin market is a bubble that is ready to burst. Something had to make you believe that. It is educational for you to share that reason with us. You know, since you brought it up.

 

All I know is, that I've seen toned coins bring more, every year.

 

You can't look at the total price of the coins. You need to examine the actual premium with relation to the price guide at the time of sale. For example, Numismedia Wholesale for an MS65 Morgan Dollar in 2002 was $98. Today, Numismedia Wholesale is $130. So if you bought the same coin in 2002 for $400 but paid $500 in 2012, the premium is actually less in 2012 despite the fact that the price is more.

And in my experience, the total price of rainbow toned coins has been falling slightly over the last few years. The exceptions are the monster toned coins which is really not that surprising. My point to you is that you are not experienced in the toned coin market and that you should not be spouting off about something you don't know about.

 

I agree with Tinpot on this very important point (and likewise plead TOTAL ignorance on aethetic valuation.) But I am fascinated by this coin market niche.

Detecto's comment "All I know is, that I've seen toned coins bring more, every year" rings somewhat true but I'd qualify it: the 'toned coin mkt' SEEMS to have held up better than other segments - compare VAMs! - but maybe that's more an (over-)emphasis on 'monster-toned' (best) examples?

For the inexperienced just peeking at prices, it would be easy to blur a) slight decline overall in aggregate value with b) significant price incease in monsters. Then again, I look at everything by-the-numbers, because number don't lie. otoh, collectors/dealers often do.

For example, collectors here REFUSE to admit that Norfed premiums have collapsed. The delusion of so-called numismatists on something as straight-forward as PRICE is especially alarming, for real prices are $ signs, market facts. ENOUGH of the goofy Beanie-Baby make-believe! 'Hard Money' people really should get it - it's worth what it's worth. And YES, we should all learn something from that debacle.

Suppose the VAM market has tanked too, for different reasons. Coins that were ~4x-6x Over Intrinsic (POS) in 2005 went parabolic, 27x Intrinsic in 2007; by 2011 & in 2012 the same VAMs had fallen back to ~2x Instrinsic :http://www.cointalk.com/t216533/#post1561944

Why presume toned coin collectors to be any more honest with their valuations? Take everything with a grain of salt. I'm inclined to see aesthetics/eye appeal as the most valid justification for paying a hefty premium. But I know that fads are fickle, tie-dyes go in and out of fashion too. Whether or not a 'Bubble' forms and/or pops can ONLY be confirmed from price data. I haven't seen any studies on different segments of the toned coin mkt, with explicit histories. Any links, please?

 

Price guides mean nothing.
Any given coin on any given day is worth what someone thinks it's worth and is willing to pay.
Someone thought it was worth more than you thought it was worth.
You were beaten. Suck it up and take it like a man instead of crying like a baby.

 

Honestly, I don't know if a penny was paid for "pretty toning". Without toning that is a pretty coin, nice original surfaces. Nice original surfaces on a dime of that era is hard enough to find. Now couple that with it being a very much in demand type coin, and I believe you have your answer.

Would I pay it? Probably not, but if I really wanted a GREAT XF for my type set, I bet I probably couldn't find a better one anywhere. Plus, $200 is NOT a lot of money for a coin anymore, so I bet a couple of people may have knowingly overpaid just to get a superlative coin for the grade for their type set.

Like I said, the coin could not have a lick of "pretty color" on it and I would have no problem with the price. You posted a CBH earlier Tim that had been overdipped. THOSE coins are very common, a non-messed with original type coin is NOT. Your price guide was probably averaging 30 overdipped coins prices in with a NICE coin like this.

Tim, it will come with experience, but some coins are WORTH more than any price guide will say. Once you truly start studying the series, and see how rare 19th century silver with untouched surfaces are, you will start to appreciate that fact. I have overpaid by a factor of 4 times book for certain coins, and thought they were a steal at that price. The area of collecting you are going into is much more complicated than looking up a coin in a price guide, if you want nice coins.

 

Good rule of thumb for me: Redbook prices on type coins (not moderns or gold/silver bullion coins) are TWICE the value. Blue book prices are HALF the value. And Greysheet is useless for market prices on draped bust, capped bust and seated coins. The current market is what determines value to me. A monster toned 1896 Morgan in MS-62 will sell for more than an MS-65 because of market demand and eye appeal. A 1809 xxx edge half will sell for more than PCGS price guide, greysheet, redbook, and all of them because people want them more.

 

There's an aesthetic issue here to be sure, and I believe it has to do with the balance between microscopic and macroscopic eye appeal. A coin that has appeal on both levels is going to be sold for a premium, sometimes an astonishing one.

I've seen a number of MS67 and 68 Kennedy's that have ugly, splotchy, brown toning - that are nevertheless part of registry collections because of their grades. I wouldn't touch them, because I prefer a nice balance between up-close eye appeal and at-arm's-length eye appeal. I'm perfectly happy with a 64 or 65 that exhibits handsome toning, but then I'm not competing for registry rank.

Put the two together: a high-grade coin with beautiful toning, and you can throw all the guides out the window. Guides can account, somewhat, for grade categories, but they are useless when it comes to toning, as each coin is unique in that category.

 

Where is it your place to say how much of their own money people should spend on things? If you had simply said; wow, I didn't think that coin would go for that much; that would have been one thing. But telling people how they should spend their own money and what's ok and what's not is something completely different.

Everyone has a different measure of value. To me that dime you linked was worth just north of $2 in melt silver. To someone else it was obviously worth $220. To someone else it might be worth $50 today and $500 tomorrow. Different strokes for different folks with different collecting interests and different budgets. Commentary on pricing in the market is fine. Telling other folks what to do with there money without them asking for your opinion is not.

Exactly

 

Have to factor in the series as well. Some coins just don't tone as much, such as Peace dollars. When a heavily toned specimen pops up you can basically expect a heavy premium on the price. I have also noticed many modern coins don't really tone either.

 

That also depends on the series. You can easily find 20 times as many rainbow-toned Jeffersons as you can clad Kennedys. Something about the cu-ni mix that keeps them from toning - they get faint shades of copper and sky blue, but it's rare to come across one that pops out at you.

 

Ugly toning. That should bring the price down, not up.

 

Just FYI, the outer layer of clad dimes - quarters - halves - dollars is made of the exact same alloy as the nickel: 25% nickel and 75% copper. What allows so many "monster rainbow toned" nickels is that the coin doctors know they can 'pass' the Artificially Toned nickels easier than AT clad coins, and their process probably damages the pure copper core of clad coins, making it obvious that they worked their 'magic'.