Do we need to do away with PF Graded coins

The reason I say this..When you bust a proof set and send in coins to be graded..They can come back graded Pf sometimes 69's 70's sometimes DC..But when you go to coinworld.com and look up the guide is blank on a est. price..Now All I have ever read proof is just a quality rating for the sharpness of the die and coin not so much as Grade..Yet we are grading everyday Proofs with a 60,63,64,65, ETC..Now would it be nice if it said PMS-65..The coins will grade MS they have been in circulation ..Yes Circulation when they left the Mint in a proof set or mint set they go into circulation otherwise we would not get them..What say ye..Good idea or not..LJ

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

'Proof' is a method of manufacture and not a condition. Hence it's own designation on the grading scale.......

 

:yes:

 

Straight out of the ( Red Book Proof refers to the method of Manufacture and is not a grade.). It should not have it's own grading scale..

 

I'm confused. Proofs and regular business strikes are completely different coins. A proof coin, even if it shows signs of circulation (wear) is still a proof coin. A regular business strike coin, now matter how great the strike, luster, etc ... can never receive a proof designation, and likewise a proof coin, no matter the amount of wear, can never receive a grade on the business strike scale (MS, AU, XF, VF, etc ...).

*- To add to what Green said (if that's what you were getting at, OP); a proof coin with signs of circulation would be graded as such (depending on the amount of wear) PF58, PF45, PF10, etc ....

 

Ever hear of 'impaired proofs'? They're the ones that enter into circulation OP.........

 

They do not have different grades. Just different designations. PF = Proof, MS = and uncirculated mint state.

If a Proof coin gets passed in change and in pockets to show wear it is then an Impaired Proof and would get something like PF 55.

 

No. Proof refers to the method of manufacture. A Proof coin is struck multiple times by highly-polished dies on polished planchets and are handled with great care. On the other hand Business Strikes (coins with an MS grade until they are circulated) are struck once by regular dies on regular planchets and do not receive any special care (unless they are to go into Mint Sets or some other packaging rather than entering circulation).

But you knew this because you answered the question yourself:

Yes we are. The grade (PF-63, PF-64, PF-65, PF-67, etc.) refers to the level of preservation. The fewer imperfections the higher the grade, just like with Business Strikes. What do you see as wrong with that?

Why should we not want to grade Proof coins? Price is dependant on condition and condition is denoted by the grade. Proof coins are graded on essentially the same scale as Business Strikes with differences due to the different surfaces of Proof coins.

What are you talking about? Are you saying when a coin leaves the Mint in a Proof Set or a Mint Set it goes into circulation? Circulation is the act of physically handling a coin by rubbing it, carrying it in a pocket, spending it (passing the coin from one hand to another or sliding it across a counter), etc.

And what do you mean by "The coins will grade MS they have been in circulation"? A coin that grades MS (Mint State) is a coin that has NOT been circulated.

PMS-65??? Proof Mint State???

You are getting your terms confused. I think you need to go back are reread the Red Book section "Proof and Mint Sets".

 

I don't have much to add as the explanations above are spot on, but her is one of my favorite PR-64s

 

Proofs were developed by the Treasury as a means of displaying and testing die types for coins. Today, though, the Proof system is a supplementary branch of the Treasury that produces superior-quality coins not intended for circulation. It sells them to the customer in prepackaged sets that give the Treasury a little extra money on the side for its functions. Since 1968, they have only been produced with an "S"- for the San Francisco Mint. Before then they were all produced by the Philidelphia Mint.
This is important for the grading scales because Proof coins have their own population charts seperate of the Business strikes- and therefore they have a completely different value. An MS66 coin most likely has a value that is different then a PF66 coin- it depends on the surviving population and the conditions of such coins.

 

Not entirely true. West Point produces many proof silver eagles and modern commemoratives as does Philadelphia (on some rare occasions). Denver even produced a proof Olympic $10 piece back in 1984.

 

Use this example..A 1911 Lincoln cent MS-67R is listed as a value for 20,000.00 a PF-66R is listed as a value of $10,000.00 If proof is a method of manufactur and is not a grade..Then why is the one that should be the perfect die be less in money one step in grade....

 

Conditional rarity.

Maybe there are 100 PF66R that have been graded. If there are only 5 MS67R that have been graded. Which coin is more rare and therefore worth more. That is known as conditional rarity.

 

Here is a good question. What is the lowest grade of a PF coin? Has a grading company ever rated a PF coin a 4 or below?

 

The lowest PF grade that I have ever seen was a PF-12 seated dollar.

 

It must of had some serious corrosion or something.

 

Here's a PF 3: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=24035&lotNo=11481

 

Wow! How the devil did they determine that? And who the devil would put a proof of that nature into circulation? After all, there weren't many collectors back then, and proofs (I would imagine) required an extra premium. Why do it? Some rich guy havin' fun back then? Heck, folks hated Trade Dollars back then.........

 

Did I mention 'back then'?

 

You cannot compare PF prices to MS prices any more then you can compare 1914 Buffalo to 1914 Dime.