Toning - a question for the purists

Here is a question for those who know, and can expertly differentiate, artificial toning versus natural toning.

In the summer of 2010, my garage was flooded by a heavy thunderstorm. I had a few boxes of nickel 25c (mint rolls) in the garage at the time. They were submerged, soaked, in rainwater and street runoff. I dried the boxes, but left the coins in their original plastic rolls, and set them on a shelf in my basement - "you can't hurt pure nickel" is what I thought.

Now, in 2012 (three plus years), I finally got around to cracking them open. Some coins are actually stuck together, and corroded, but some are toned. The toning on some of the coins is a beautiful soft rainbow, and some have vivid toning patterns, like gasoline on water...

Would you consider these coins artificially toned, or naturally toned?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

from how you explained it, for me personally i would consider it naturally toned. you didn't do anything specific for this toning to occur. it happened due to the conditions they were in. the toning process was just accelerated due to the conditions they were under.

 

This discussion really depends on how you define natural and artificial toning. I say that because there is no accepted definition. Some believe that intent is the deciding factor. Using intent as the criteria, then your coins would be considered naturally toned. However, if you are concerned whether or not these coins will pass muster with the TPGs, intent has nothing to do with it.

The TPGs follow a concept of market acceptability. They have no idea what has happened to the coin prior to their evaluation and certainly have no idea about the intent of the individual(s) who have owned the coin prior to submission. Therefore, all they can do is judge the toning of the coin based on its merits. If the TPGs don't approve of the toning and deem it to be questionable, the coin essentially becomes a problem coin, no different than if the coin were cleaned or polished. If the TPGs approve of the toning, it is deemed "market acceptable" but it is not an endorsement or declaration that the toning is natural. The goal of the TPGs is to keep questionably toned coins out of their problem free holders, and while they do a very good job in general, they are basically making an educated guess since they really don't know what happened to the coin. Part of this guesswork involves understanding what are generally considered "acceptable" or "questionable" toning patterns for each series of coin.

For example, you stated that some of your coins exhibit "vivid toning patterns, like gasoline on water". I can tell you that this type of oil slick toning usually results from the application of a liquid to the surface of the coin and is considered questionable for every series. And while this type of toning can be hard to tell in photographs, they look very suspicious and distinctive in hand. Here is an example of a coin with oil slick toning.



And despite the fact that there was no intent on the part of the owner to artificially toned the coin, the coin has developed questionable toning as a result of improper storage and is considered a problem coin. Just as the coin owners who clean their coins don't mean to ruin them, most people who end up with questionably toned coins due to improper storage did not intend to AT their coin. But in the end, they are still problem coins, regardless of intent.

With regards to the coins with beautiful soft rainbow toning, depending on the pattern and color scheme in combination with the series, it is entirely possible that these coins could be considered "market acceptable" despite the fact that they sat right next to the oil slick coins which are relegated to QT/AT.

 

I think it really boils down to the eye appeal of the toning and if it's market acceptable.
Sure you didn't tone them on purpose, yet they were toned by means and substances that aren't the usual suspects, like album toning, etc.

Since you told the back story, I would suspect the toning is not actually on the coin, but rather a residue or film left behind by the flood waters.

-greg

 

Dang Paul, that bums me out. Especially since I got that group of them like that.
That's too bad. I really thought they were premium toning. Why didn't you tell me this when you first saw mine? Not cool bro!
I didn't pay premium prices for them. So it's all good.
Learning is always a good thing, even if it's not good news.

Here are some examples. Apparently from my BP Oil Commemorative Set.








This poor guy must have taken the brunt of it.

 

The nickel itself is toned. I tried to remove any residue with acetone. For me, these coins are too new (1999 and 2000), to have any eye-appeal to collectors of modern business strikes. But, I am a sucker for toned coins, and these coins are fun to look at. These were mint-issued rolls, and I was even annoyed, when I found a beautiful MS-66 strike, but was toned and so was not worth even certifying to sell.

Here are a few more to share. Enjoy.

 

And a few more....

This was the "end of the roll"...



Here is a comparison of toned and untoned, from the same roll.



One last rainbow...

 

Don't forget, these are pure nickel coins. I can't imagine they would ever achieve the awesome toning you are sharing with those Jefferson nickels (Cu-Ni alloy).

 

Naturally toned.

 

@SPP Ottawa,

Most of the toned coins you have shown in this thread I think would be considered questionably toned by the TPGs. My feeling is that if you like them, keep them raw and enjoy them.

@Gbroke,

Greg, I wasn't aware you had a BP set of Jeffersons. Like I said though, in photographs, the oil slick toning is hard to detect. It only becomes evident in hand. Either way, those Jeffs are cool. I really like the 52-D.

 

I'm starting to really like toned coins! Thanks for the pictures! Nice post!

 

I suppose in some ways, they remind me of some of the Appalachian nickels. Not necessarily the patterns, but the sheer audacity of the colors. I wonder what NGC would have to say.

 

You could always try anyway. NT vs. AT is so subjective that you could send the same coin in, to the same TPG, and even the same grader, and have it come back NT one day and AT the next. The distinction is extremely subjective because there is no set standard as to what constitutes artificial toning (despite what some people claim, there's really no way to tell even if you did try to set a standard). Even the concept of "market acceptability" is very subjective and can change based on the day of the week or what the grader had for breakfast.

Even if the TPG calls it artificial toning you could probably find someone willing to buy it anyway. (Break it out though; problem slabs are harder to sell than raw coins. A buyer might decide they like a "problem" coin anyway, but not when it's blatantly labelled as one.) I'm not a huge fan of toning myself but I concede that many are and people have different tastes in this regard.

 

It really isn't as arbitrary as you make it out to be. In general, the TPG's do a very good job eliminating most of the AT coins from their slabs. Only AT coins of the very best quality can make it past the TPG graders. It certainly has nothing to do with what they had for breakfast. If the OP sends those coins in for grading, they are coming back in a GENUINE holder every time. But hey, why not tell him to send them in, it isn't your money.

 

If I were you, I would try to send a couple for grading, and test the waters in seeing if these are market acceptable or not. Then if you decide to sell them, I would be sure to tell you to definitely give full disclosure how these came to be.

~Cannyn

 

Natural or Artificial. As long as it doesn't wash off or come off in your hand ....................... does it really matter?

 

For the record, none of these coins are taking the ride across the border to a third party grader - it simply is not worth it - the demand for these coins is fairly low. I most likely will sell them raw at shows. I just thought it was an interesting scenario as to how these coins toned and where the line is drawn between AT and NT (putting intent aside).

 

However, I digress... I did send one to a Canadian third party grader (ICCS), and they too thought it was naturally toned. It was one with a soft, uniform bulls-eye rainbow tone, and it came back MS-65 (probably MS-66 equivalent with PCGS standards, although I doubt they would encapsulate it). I don't collect Canadian nickel 25-cent coins, but I thought it was fun to try.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GEM-TONED-Canada-25c-2000-Harmony-June-ICCS-MS-65-/290940849629

 

Remind me never to buy any coins in ICCS slabs.

Do they even care about surfaces on coins? Also, eBay accepts them as a TPG?

 

On eBay.ca, yes they are accepted as a TPG. As for surfaces on coins, ICCS prefers to only give a "technical grade" (in their words, whatever that means)... They are like ICG in some ways, they will slab problem coins and write the problem on the comment. Canadian dealers use this TPG extensively, probably because it is cheap (soft flip @ $7 each). They do not offer a guarantee like PCGS does, hence why my best coins go to PCGS (for my personal collection).

As for this specific coin, the surfaces look pristine, it is just softly toned... it really does have wonderful eye appeal....