I Can't believe the Idiots at HA.com!!!

Ok I am looking into letting go of my 1890-p vam 15a, but pricing has been a bit difficult, so I take the time to write out a request for opinion from HA.com. I give them all the specifics about the coin the VAM that it is and a full explination that it is presently being graded at ANACS because NGC and PCGS do not certify this vam. Now simply put with less then 15 minutes of research and reading on the web (actualy less as someone here was kind enough to give me a direct link to it) I learned that this was Key vam as there are only 28 presently graded/slabbed.
I can't believe the stupidity of the responce I recieved. You can all be sure I will be thinking twice about trusting any "grading" opinions this company has in the future.

Here is the text of my e-mail and the responce i recieved......
I sent via their forms....
[TABLE="class: ecxMsoNormalTable, width: 100%"]

Brief Description:​

1890-p VAM-15A

List of Items or highlights:​

Sirs, as this coin has at present a total population of 28 and an R6 rating I am very lost on pricing it for possible sale/auction. It is presently at ANACS being graded but I am expecting a grade in the range of au58-ms62 (call it ms60 for now) There is no doubt of the VAM ID but due to rarity I have had major issues in determining even aprox value (forums have suggested $250.00-$250k so you might understand why I am a bit lost) Please, I am not asking for an appraisal just a very general idea of price range if i do elect to sell.




[/TABLE]

This is the responce I recieved...
Thank you for your inquiry. I am not familiar with this VAM. I would suggest sending the coin to NGC or PCGS for grading and VAM attribution to make sure they deem which VAM it is.
Regards,
Mark R. Ingold
Senior Numismatist
HERITAGE AUCTIONS


I know that if i had ever answered a customer e-mail in a manner like this i would have been unemployed the next day.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I agreed with you.. ...

 

Heritage isn't a free appraisals business. You'll find most coin dealers would have given you the same answer as Heritage.
Guy

 

There are not many VAM collectors, and most of the ones I know prefer to cherrypick their examples, so I can understand why you and/or HA might have a challenge putting a value on your coin. That said, I think HA gave you solid advice -- you will be best served if the coin is in NGC or PCGS plastic rather than ANACS -- and I don't think they are in the business of pricing coins, but rather auctioning them. VAMs are a relatively esoteric market and very unpredictable, even for the experienced.

If I were in your shoes, I would post your coin on the PCGS forums and ask for the VAM guys to take a whack at valuing the coin.

 

Why? That email seems polite, if cursory. Does HA get tons of requests for "price ranges" that can be used to prop or promote valuation of so-called 'rare Morgans' ? Or should that boilerplate be read as a blunt "Not interested - I can't be bothered" ? And why should he be... are you actually a "customer" rather than just a selfish inquirer (one of dozens cluttering his mailbox every day)?

I'd suggest you thank him for his time, and his professional courtesy in replying (even if you're not happy with the results.)

You might also apologize for rudely posting his private correspondence online. What ever happened to etiquette???


As for the coin, you presumably found the link:
http://www.vamworld.com/1890-P+VAM-15A

That guy indicates it's certified by NGC: "NGC-MS62". He's selling for $525. - no buyers, so probably overpriced.
http://vamsandmore.com/shop/1890-P-...pled-Eear-with-Gouges-Below-Wreath-2-103.html

Is it the same coin that sold for 100 bucks about 15 months ago?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250860752311

And this (ANACS 62) is still for sale @ $115. ?
http://www.vamworld.com/message/view/BSTA/50195360

My guess: a coin dealer will pay you ~ USD$ 75. Someone here, maybe USD$ 125.
(I wouldn't call them "idiots" though. If someone wants to spend more they can: it's a free country, God Bless Us All!)

For my purposes, I'm trying to find any long term, reasonably consistent indices for these middle-market coins. To my untrained eye, today's prices look radically depreciated from an ethereal peak in 2007/2008 - like a 'Coin Bubble' popped. So how much farther should median numismatic values sink, according to long term price-charts and by reasonable approximation of price experts?

Thank you for helping my research, in advance!

 

It was not a courtious reply in any sense of the word. Simply put the responder by his very answer DID NOT READ the message just the title of the post. As for being a customer, as i made the request of them it was because they were being considered as the auctioning company. If he had read the e-mail and not just the title he would have known that the coin is already out for the very grading that he suggest by the only TPG that certs all current VAMs unlike pcgs and ngc. Add to that if he had bothered to check the customer database he would have seen over a dozen purchases in the last year.


Also please note that the "ngc" coins that you have posted are NOT attributed as VAM 15a only decared by the seller to be such as NGC does not atrib that VAM nor does PCGS. The coins in question are only graded as 1890-p morgans not as VAMS and this is the primary reason that they have not sold imho.

And as for etiquette, I give what I recieve.

 

mrweaseluv-
I'm a curmudgeon, too. That said - do you really not get it? Is this some kind of joke?

It was a courteous reply. Not what you wanted from them, obviously & admittedly, but still. Please. Let's be real.

Let's be honest here: you're NOT a customer of theirs. You're just imposing on someone. I missed nothing - and maybe HA got your other drift, too.
Either way, take it as a very polite brush off (which it may have been) probably more than beggars deserve and move on to positive things.

No. Your posting this very weird, apparently self-absorbed grievance online looks STALKERISH. Has HA ever stalked you? I doubt that.

Call ME "crazy" but I think calling for someone's termination for this & in this manner is waaaaaay over the top. You're also attacking them/him in an ad hominem way, behind the screen of anonymity.

Ignoramus that I am, I also suppose my valuation for this coin is FAIR if not 'spot-on.' But I'll let others decide. I admit I'm an ignoramus in coin grading. And quite new to the Red Queen's dominion.

Regards.

 

PCGS does attribute the Top 100, 50, 40 lists on VAM World, but they do not do so by rarity alone. The extent of the varietal difference weighs more on the market pricing than only rarity. Many of the VAMs on the above lists are not as rare, but, the difference can usually be seen with the eye or minimal magnification. It was easy for me to find many 1955/55`die-1 cents, but harder to find die-2, or even die-3, because they weren't nearly as visible, and only the Diehards were looking for them. But the desirability for the Die-1 was so great, the others were priced much lower than they deserved if the Die -1 hadn't existed. I can tell you the market price for Die 1, but I wouldn't even know where to find a reasonable pricing for Die-2,Die -3, and probably HA wouldn't venture a guess either. Usually in most auctions you can put a reserve on it, but you would still be responsible for your fees, but at least it wouldn't sell for less than you wanted. I think you would be best served by getting ANACs to slab it and then write up an excellent history for selling on eBay with your reserve, IMO,

Jim

 

Agreed Jim,
I was just mostly upset by the brush off and the failure of responder to bother to even read the body of the e-mail. It was plain disrespectful.

 

His reply was courteous. Your reaction is unfortunate.

 

This man has no other purpose at HA than to wait for, read, research and respond to your ever so important question, and he blew it.

 

Over one email and they are idiots? I don't feel you are being fair with them.

 

I agree with some of the others as well - not sure you are being fair. Just think about how many hundreds of emails they get where someone is asking them to price their coin. They need to work on the ones that actually consigned coins. Plus - search their archives yourself that is what they use. If they have not sold any VAM's like that they will not have pricing. I actually consigned some coins with them. After that they provided a broad range of values(high and low) - of course only one had a variety(large cent) and it brought more than the range stated. I verified a few coins by just checking archive prices. Even then it was not a guarantee on what the coin would bring - the only way to ensure that is to set a reserve price. My consignment was large enough I was only charged 5% - I was very happy with that.

 

I think he's being honest with you. He stated in his reply he is not familiar with the VAM 15A. Would you rather he advise you differently based on his lack of knowledge of this VAM?

How so? He was very polite, "Thank you for your inquiry."

He was also honest, "I am not familiar with this VAM."

He also gave you sound advice, "I would suggest sending the coin to NGC or PCGS for grading and VAM attribution to make sure they deem which VAM it is."

BTW, where are you getting this coins pop is 28? Can't be from PCGS as they only attribute VAMS on the Top 100, Hot 50, and Hit List 40, all of which this VAM is not on. If I'm not mistaken, I believe NGC attributes the same lists.

I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Wait for the coin to come back from ANACS, and see what they graded the coin, and whether they attributed the VAM.

 

Do you know who PCGS and NGC only attribute a select number of VAM's? Because they are really the only ones that matter from a pricing standpoint. Sure VAMS are fun to find and hunt for... but even about 50% of the top hundred list can be had for very small premiums over generic prices already in slabs. Odds are that if it's not a Top 100 or one of the other listings... then it's not worth ANY more then just a generic dollar without the VAM. I VAM hunt daily and sell them on a pretty regular basis.

Heritage sells the world's finest coins... hands down... when a super rarity is sold it's most likely Heritage that's going to be selling it. Coins that bring 7 figures...

He was polite...blunt, but polite.

 

What, NO CAPS?!

I still believe 'termination' for Mark R. Ingold sounds too harsh - how about taking him behind the woodshed... or just sending him to bed early without supper?

2005: VAMview lists 3Q 2005 prices of 1890-P for $26. - 47. (3.7 x to 6.7x over POS @ $7.)

2007: Scroll 4/5th the way down this pdf, VAMview 2007 "Recent VAM sale prices list..." right side on Page 55: an 1890-P 15A Grade 58 sold in June 07 for $355. That was the market peak, no? The guy mostly responsible for producing VAMView was also the guy who identified that varietal (so: not surprising it's in his mag.) (27.3 x over POS @ $13.)

2011: Good grief! How right I was. I see one MS62 graded & slabbed by ICG sold on eBay for $75. in May 2011. (2.1 x over POS @ $36.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1890-VAM-15A-RARE-VAM-I-3-R-6-TRIPLED-EAR-EDL-GOUGES-/330563186239

2012: Can someone please tell me how much the low-range "certified" varietals Morgan market has fallen, since then? Median price or ballpark percentage o.k., and thanks!

Don't you think $363 is way too much for this? ('BIN' seems a tad ridiculous, yet again.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1890-R-6-rare-Morgan-Dollar-VAM-15A-Spiked-Gouge-AU-12uB-/221084170183

Admittedly 'not certified, $65. is just (2.0 x over POS @ $32.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1890-P-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-297-MULTIPLE-VAM-REAL-NICE-/230649689093

 

that PCGS NGC part seems to be the point

 

As someone who has personally met and conducted business with Mark Ingold, I think your criticism of his e-mail response very harsh.

 

Ok guys, I will go this far at least, I will admit I have been overly harsh in publicly criticising Mr. Ingold on a forum where he is not present to defend his own side of the issue. I will also say the wording of his e-mail was not discurtious and could be considered a polite brushoff. I for one would have been much happier with an honest "we are not interested in that item at this time" form letter. For these reasons I will publicly state that I appoligize for bringing this issue out in public to the members of the forum and Mr. Ingold.

 

Well said.