The Flying Eagle saga - update

Hey everyone,
I thought I would update the kind folks of this forum on the great Flying Eagle debate from the other thread I posted.
I figured a new thread would be better. I want to thank everyone for their comments and opinions. It really is a fantastic educational experience and makes for a great read.

Here is the original thread

Here is the coin again:




At lunch today, I took it to a local, very experienced dealer B&M shop. I will paraphrase the best I can.

After the counter person looked at it, it was time to call out the big boy from the back.
He took multiple lengthy looks at it as I waited in silence with my fingers crossed.
We then discussed the situation for awhile.

Here are the opinions drawn from it by the dealer:

Fake?
As 99% of you, and myself all agreed, it is 100% Genuine.

Polished?
I know it's very difficult to tell from still images, but as I tried to convey, both the obverse and reverse have gorgeous cartwheel luster without any breaks.
The dealer also agreed that it has cartwheel luster and a polishing would strip most of that, if not all of it, away.
However, as a disclaimer he said: "It is possible the doctors are getting so good at it, that they may be able to reproduce the luster".
He sides to it not being polished.

The color?
This was interesting. Although the toning raises some flags, he feels that the colors, the pattern, how they lay on the coin, and how they appear in hand are NOT what would expect to see from an AT coin.
So it was inconclusive, and therefore he feels NGC/PCGS would be cautious and bag it as questionable color. I can agree with that,although I am not 100% convinced. The only thing keeping me from screaming AT myself, are the greens. But that is a mute point.

General Thoughts
The most significant concern from the dealer was the fact that it wasn't in a slab already. His thoughts were, it is just too nice if there wasn't a problem.
This is always debatable, especially for me being a raw collector. I have items, not in slabs, that are worth multiples of the value of this FE if it were in a 65 holder.
We both agreed it was a stunning coin with a fantastic strike and beautiful eye appeal.
When I asked what he felt the reason the TPG's would body-bag it, he had a hard time saying. Possibly altered surfaces, but most likely questionable color.
Was it worth what I paid? We also both agreed on this. For a purist, a dealer, or someone who tries to make money on coins, probably not.
However, for a collector like me, or any collector of raw FE's, it certainly is. It's a wonderful example and a nice piece of history.
You cannot put a value on a coin like this. It's worth what someone will pay and how much they like it.
Guess what? I like it a lot! Also, it wasn't that expensive.

So now what?
At risk of being berated by some collectors, I have decided I am going to keep it.
Not because I disagree with the professionals and a lot of you, but for the following reasons:

1. I do not collect coins to impress anyone. To me, coins aren't about their value, potential value or rarity. They are about the passion and the pursuit of finding those coins that just give you enjoyment.Seems a lot of people forget that coin collecting is supposed to be a fun hobby for people like me. If I cared about investment I would stack silver and gold, or better yet, not be buying coins at all.
2. This Flying Eagle has invoked many feelings among you folks, myself and other collectors. It has created a great conversation while at the same time giving me an education on the subject.
3. It truly has magnificent eye appeal, doctored or not. It is something I will enjoy showing collectors and non-collectors alike.
4. It will serve as a reminder to me as my collecting continues.

So, into the type set it goes for now. I will bring it with me to upcoming shows here in MI. I will love to hear the various opinions from different dealers.
Thanks again for all the comments, whether encouraging or discouraging. It was great to see a lively debate without anyone getting out of hand or bringing an attitude.

-greg

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I'm not going to hammer you on the purchase, but will state that the piece has altered surfaces (polished, whizzed or smoothed fields) as well as artificial color. If you want to keep it because you love it and it didn't cost much then that is up to you and I wish you well enjoying the coin.

 

Well said, Tom, I agree.

 

I would like to see it at the MSNS. Ill be walking the floor or just sitting with a couple of other dealers so we will have to exchange info before.

(lol I started to get out of hand at one point)

 

A beautiful coin and a perfect example of how a TPG’er opinion (if they would body bag it) means nothing other than to those willing to pay for their opinion. The coin is what it is and I’d love to have it in my collection. So, come on, tells what it set you back.

 

$400. Which is MS 60 price for an original FE.

 

Good for you gbroke! Well said...if you like it; keep it. Some of my favorite coins in my collection are in details slabs.

-LTB

 

Nice! I'd send it off for slabbing, it's clearly better than ms60, if it's not bagged. If it comes back bagged, break it out.

 

So, has anybody here ever started a "Post your best Details coin" thread? I know I've got at least one candidate, although it certainly doesn't compete with the subject of this thread...

 

I will be there! It's 5 minutes from my house.

 

I don't recall one, but it certainly sounds like a good idea.

 

Sounds like a good idea. I haven't seen one, but that doesn't mean there isn't.

 

My guess is that it's been wizzed. The devices are "shiny" for lack of a better word. The luster you are seeing is the artificial luster from the wizzing process. Bedford is more then qualified to tell you what is up with this coin and I hope he reports his thoughts.

 

I am an amature at judging coins, but OMG that is one beautiful specimen. I see no wear on the feathers and an extra strong strike. I would love to own any old type coin as nice as this. You did well even at the price you mentioned. Congratulations.

I need to win the lotto.

Dave

 

But Matt , whizzing produces a false luster that anyone who knows how luster acts can see right away , It can't really mimic real cartwheel luster that Greg says it has , at least I've never seen it .

 

Smart decision to keep it. I like the coin a lot. As I said before, I was one of the folks who thought it genuine. I also thought it was NOT doctored--that Flying Eagle dies were rather crude, and any marks on it could come from die imperfections. I also thought that it was NOT AT, and I'd stand by it. I would think that there is a chance that NGC would NOT bodybag it, and call it a "details coin." PCGS, I am not too sure, but I think it would get through NGC. I also think it would be slabbed at the new and NOT improved ANACS--they are more liberal about color then either of the two big guns. So, I stand by that I said---business strike, NOT altered surfaces, genuine, natural toning, and I think a 65.

 

It depends on the skill of the person doing the whizz job. I have seen some pretty good ones and the addition of toning can help mask it to the point that is hardly detectable. Of course this is all just conjecture based on nothing more then experience and without an in hand inspection it's impossible to give a "for sure" answer.

Just speaking from my gut...

 

I'm glad that you decided to keep it, it's a real beauty.

There is a way to keep a cartwheel effect though, spin it on a lathe and polish it with a light cloth. Pretty easy actually, but I don;t see any evidence of that here. The only thing that ever concerned me was the color. Although it looks natural to me, I've been fooled before, at least that is how NGC saw it.

 

If you don't mind me asking how much did you purchase this coin for?

 

Normally I would agree with you, but since the coin has virtually no scratch marks (as far as I can see), I'm thinking it was (lightly?) dipped. Dipping doesn't necessarily strip all the luster; only an over-dipping would do that.

I can't imagine any coin from the mid 1800's having that strong of a luster, except for proofs (which we concluded that it wasn't).