totally confused. difference between proof and ms?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by bryantallard, Sep 19, 2012.

Page 2 of 11
  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Nothing.

    There is only 1 thing that changes a coin from being MS to not being MS. That 1 thing is wear. It doesn't matter where you got a coin from, it can be from a roll, it can be from a bag, it can be from the mint, it can be from the bank, it can be from your neighbor, it can be from the grocery store. But as long as the coin has no wear then the coin is MS. If the coin has wear then the coin is not MS, not matter where or how you got it.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 21, 2012
    #21 + Quote Reply
    MKent likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    Right - that was what I was saying
    On Top of Spaghetti



    On top of spaghetti,
    All covered with cheese,
    I lost my poor meatball,
    When somebody sneezed.

    It rolled off the table,
    And on to the floor,
    And then my poor meatball,
    Rolled out of the door.

    It rolled in the garden,
    And under a bush,
    And then my poor meatball,
    Was nothing but mush.

    The mush was as tasty
    As tasty could be,
    And then the next summer,
    It grew into a tree.

    The tree was all covered,
    All covered with moss,
    And on it grew meatballs,
    And tomato sauce.

    So if you eat spaghetti,
    All covered with cheese,
    Hold on to your meatball,
    Whenever you sneeze.
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 21, 2012
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Cabinet/Roll Friction

    I know you don't subscribe, but the TPG's do.
     
    Lehigh96, Sep 21, 2012
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah, but you know why I don't subscribe ? Because anybody can claim that any light wear, even wear from circulation, is cabinet or roll friction and then use that as an excuse to grade the coin as MS when it simply is not. PCGS states that any coin with light wear can be graded as high as MS67. But they supposedly will not grade any coin with light wear MS68 or above.

    Well, what happened to that wear ? Did it magically change ? No, it didn't change at all. It still came from the very same cause. If it is reason to prevent a coin from being graded 68 or higher then it is reason to prevent the coin from being graded MS anything.

    The theory and practice exists for one reason only, so collectors can claim that they own MS coins that are not MS at all. It is PCGS's way of throwing a bone to collectors so they can feel better about themselves and their AU coins.

    That's the problem with the theory. With very, very, few coins can it ever be known for certain or proven that the light wear on the coin came from cabinet friction. And that is where the theory originated to begin with. From specific coins that were documented and known to have been purchased directly from the mint by a specific person and then stored by that person in his coin cabinet. Usually for very long time.

    But wear is wear, no matter how it got there. And if a coin has wear then it is not mint state. That theory is like saying that somebody is only a little bit pregnant.

    Nobody with any common sense should subscribe to that theory.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 21, 2012
    #24 + Quote Reply
    MKent likes this.
  6. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    They treat it just like bag marks. Bag marks should also be no-existant at MS68
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 21, 2012
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    As Ruben already stated, it is treated as an abrasion, not wear. It makes perfect sense that roll friction could limit the grade of a coin at high mint state grades yet not be treated as wear.

    This is 100% untrue. The reason they do it is because they market grade coins and the difference between a high grade mint state coin with roll friction and an actual AU is coin is obvious. The TPG's and everyone else recognize that these coins are not equal and should not be valued the same.

    I am okay with some circulated coins ending up in MS holders in order to ensure that great coins with roll friction are market graded accurately. To be clear, it is your opinion that wear is wear, no matter how it got there. Your opinion is not what is accepted by the numismatic society and to say that anybody who disagrees with you lacks common sense is arrogant to say the least.

    BTW, what grade would you assign this Saint?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Lehigh96, Sep 21, 2012
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    vf45
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 23, 2012
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. miedbe7

    miedbe7 Wayward Collector

    The funny/ironic/confusing thing is: the commemorative coin you use as an example for a MS coin actually received some degree of special care and attention like that of a proof coin. A better example would have been coinage intended for circulation, regardless of it's condition. The MS and PF designation in the Redbook delineates most times just between proof coinage, and then leaves everything else. Whether it's a clad quarter intended for circulation or a commemorative silver dollar with an uncirculated finish, they are both lumped into this MS category. Ultimately, I think "business-strike" would be an appropriate term to use in relation to the OP.
     
    miedbe7, Sep 23, 2012
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. Aslpride

    Aslpride Active Member

    I thought it would be between AU 55 to AU 58.
     
    Aslpride, Sep 23, 2012
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    It actually looks like an MS 61 although damn if I can grade gold
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 23, 2012
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. Aslpride

    Aslpride Active Member

    Gold and other coins should grade according to grading system, I think gold coins aren't exceptional ones that have different grading system. From what I see, it's nice coin, but it has marks on high points. That's why I guess it's AU 55 to 58.
     
    Aslpride, Sep 23, 2012
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. BUncirculated

    BUncirculated Well-Known Member

    If the marks you see are bag marks, or contact marks from other coins, those usually don't hold a coin back from an MS grade.

    Circulation wear does; however.
     
    BUncirculated, Sep 23, 2012
    #32 + Quote Reply
    MKent likes this.
  14. thecoin

    thecoin New Member

    If a coin has been taken from circulation it could be uncirc or circ, if a coin has always been in a roll, bag, mint set, since minting, it is uncirculated.

    Ms-60 can have bag marks and stuff
     
    thecoin, Sep 23, 2012
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    don't believe that unless it has a CAC sticker
     
    mrbrklyn, Sep 23, 2012
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. thecoin

    thecoin New Member

    Hugh?
     
    thecoin, Sep 23, 2012
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. Aslpride

    Aslpride Active Member

    I assume knee is high point for that gold coin. You can see it's knee and leg with wear marks instead of contact or bag marks.
     
    Aslpride, Sep 23, 2012
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    I hate to break it to you, but everything is not so cut and dry.



    Are you sure about that?
     
    BooksB4Coins, Sep 23, 2012
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    Who is Hugh?
     
    Hobo, Sep 23, 2012
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. rickmp

    rickmp Frequently flatulent.

    And why are you dragging him into this?
     
    rickmp, Sep 23, 2012
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. Aslpride

    Aslpride Active Member

    I can't be 100 percent sure until I have that gold in my hand and examine with magnify. It's my estimate based on picture it provided.
     
    Aslpride, Sep 23, 2012
    #40 + Quote Reply
165 more messages...
Page 2 of 11
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page