Returning problem coins

I was just looking for good for grade as the dealer warranted with his description of the coin in selling it to me. I did not expect to make money on this coin, I was looking for a good for grade AU50 coin (the dealer in question described it as a "choice AU +"). By being made aware that it would not grade he can educate himself on his business practice and I would also learn but would take the financial loss of the grading fee plus a reasonable percentage restocking fee not a 60% loss. I showed both the coin in question as well as the dealer flip to a number of show dealers today and they agreed he was being wrong and unreasonable. When a dealer states a description of fact on a flip he/she becomes legally accountable, this is what the case cited at CU shows.

 

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Stop trying to bully me with your jaundiced rhetoric! AU Bust H10cs have little upside from AU50 and in the other low AU grades.

 

Ooops, you're right. I read that multiple times, but somehow missed it.

 

I know a gentleman who has been dealing since the 1950's and owns a B&M that has been "established" since the late 1930's (same business but under different names). I can guarantee you that he is a seasoned professional.... at selling coins, not at grading, identifying problems, etc. As has been mentioned many times already, one should never confuse "dealer" with "expert" regardless of how established or professional they seem.

Did the OP "pay a premium"? By his own admission he bought at a RAW price, but is now bothered because the coin was not as he (and possibly the dealer) thought. Had this coin come back as hoped or unc, I doubt we would not even be having his discussion, but because the buy did not turn out in his favor, it's all the dealer's fault. The fact is that there are too many today who want to have their cake and eat it too. This whole idea that the dealer should sell at a raw price while backing up the coin as if it were slabbed is ridiculous. They too could just as easily could have the coin slabbed, but no... they should sell at a discount so some one-off collector can reap the rewards, but only with a full guarantee that a TPG will agree with their assessment.

The only thing that (if true) this dealer did that we know is questionable, was his buy back price, especially if he still felt the coin a solid example.

 

Bully you, I don't think so. Little upside, I don't think so. A 63 CB H10 is an $800 coin.

Ok, Instead of asking you what you would have done, I'll tell you what I would have done. If it came back 63' I would be all smiles, all day long. If it came back whizzed, I would have sucked it up, hit the books/Internet and learned about whizzing. YMMV

 

That is just so ludicrous as to defy common sense; when was the last time you saw a show dealer under-represent their coins? They need collectors, other dealers and investors for liquidity. If they do not have proper business practice they lose business or can't sleep at night. I have rarely if ever had coins a dealer grades XF or AU grade higher. I cannot think of a case where I bought from a show dealer who graded a coin as XF and it graded AU or similar case. I have seen plenty of cases where they are selling "sliders" as MS coins, but not the other way around. Another dealer was selling a couple coins as AU50; the coins graded XF details, cleaning. He charged me a $35 restocking fee and was not happy as it affected his bottom line. And he said he cannot in good conscience now sell that coin as a good AU50. That is the way healthy customer feedback works. He was too lazy to get the coin graded and too unschooled to know that the coin was XF not AU. Customers just want properly graded coins they can rely on the judgment of the dealer. Actually after asking a couple people today, it seems like this dealer does quite a few Massachusetts shows, I do not go to those shows so I was not aware of that.

On some more laws on grading coins beyond the initial one:

“When (if) you represent that a particular coin is a particular numerical grade, you have made an express warranty that the coin is, in fact, the grade you represented it to be, and if it isn’t, you can be held liable for damages.”


Do you think a Seller would be responsible for the grades assigned by third party graders such as PCGS, NGC or Anacs?

For example, if a person sells a coin and advertises it as; “PCGS has graded this coin ms63" would this make the Seller potentially liable for the grade assigned by PCGS if the coin turns out to be an au58? Thanks csw. Matteproof

ps. Frattlaw what do you think? Any ideas? Suggestions?

"You would be liable if you had a conflict of interest such as being a grader of the TPG company or an owner of the TPG (which assumes possible influence over the grade assigned to the coins) and other scenarios."

Joe.


"NO you have recourse thru the TPG if the coin was/is misgraded. However if you doctor your images to to hide marks, grease streaks and the like then you are misrepresenting the coin and should be obligted to accept a return and refund the buyer's money in full. Same if you offer poor quality pics which do not accurately portray the item.
When you buy a car you sign a form releasing the dealer from liability for defects because they did not make the car. "
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=295472&STARTPAGE=2

As with the Numisgroup case, there was no statute of limitations on fraud. Fraud pretty much prevents legal defense on the case of sellers.

Yes I have been willing to eat thousands of dollars of losses over the course of time shrugging off losses.

When I sell all my coins get graded at NGC, PCGS or ANACS and then get run at auction. This gives the customer maximum security and confidence in transactions. I do not palm off problem coins on customers and never have.

 

Interesting, it seems you have it all figured out. I really don't understand why you were asking for opinions in the first place.

This is your can of worms

 

I think the only thing he has figured out is that he didn't come out ahead like he thought he would. All he's done in his last post is contradict himself and has done nothing but whine and cry about the bad deal "he" did because he did not use good judgment in buying.

Buy the books, study them, then study them again. Learn about what your doing, take reasonably for what you did because of your inability to know how to grade on your own, this way none of those big bad dealers can do you in.
Bill Collector

 

Ever heard of cherrypicking?

Just a thought, but maybe you should have bought from one of these dealers, or didn't they have the coin you wanted, or if they did, maybe it was not priced at a level that you could potentially profit from?

May I ask why you chose to submit to ANACS instead of PCGS or NGC? Could it be that you felt (or knew) there was a problem with the coin, yet were hoping that their (sometimes) leniency would allow it to slide through? Maybe this was your preference, but I cannot help but wonder why the same guy who earlier talked about buying raw for a profit, would choose to submit to a lower end service while knowing the holder could end up hurting your bottom line.

So are you going to start suing every dealer who sells you a coin that does not come back exactly as labeled? While you're at it, maybe you can start suing the TPGs for gradflation too.

 

The money making part aside, what warranty did the dealer give? A grade written on a flip is no guaranty that the coin in that flip will grade what is written on the outside. Check any of a number of "Guess the Grade" threads on this board, and you'll many different opinions of the grade of that particular coin. It is up to you to decide what a raw coin grades at. Unless the dealer gave you a COA or other written form stating "I guaranty this coin is a Choice AU", you really do not have a leg to stand on. Good luck proving he said anything. Produce the flip, and his response will probably be "I told him it might be AU, but I told him to judge for himself." He may even claim he bought the coin and flip that way, and just put it in his rack.

Where, exactly, did you get this? Please cite your source. Otherwise, it's meaningless. If it comes from the same forum you quoted earlier, I still do not think that applies to your situation. And he stated it was AU, and it came back AU. The law you quote doesn't mention cleaned or not.

That's another dealer. They're not all the same. For every good dealer willing to cater to your needs, there's another one who is simply in it for profit. That does not indicate the ones for profit are doing anything illegal.

And in the other instance, you apparently were as well, in the fact that you took the written grade on the slip as gospel, and didn't bother to educate yourself and examine the coin before you handed over your money.

So, he's not really worried about losing you as a customer. give that up and move on.

This does not apply in this case, you viewed the coin in person, in your hand, at a coin show (unless I misread something else). And the grade in question wasn't assigned by a TPG when you bought the coin.

The bottom line is, you are accusing this seller of fraud, when there appears to be no fraudulent activity evident on the part of this seller. You had the opportunity to see and closely examine the coin. His opinion was that the coin would grade AU, it did, so no fraud there. You either missed the whizzing when you examined the coin, or didn't look at very closely. So apparently did he. But the bottom line is, YOU bought the coin directly and personally from this guy. You had the opportunity to see the coin in hand before you bought it. You did not get a certificate or a written warranty with the coin (again, a grade written on the flip, that may or may not have been written by this guy, is NOT a warranty). It did not meet your expectations, based on a conversation with a vendor and no thorough exam by you. While in a perfect world it would be nice to not have to pay for our mistakes, it happens. This whole discussion would be null and void had you done your part before purchasing the coin. It seems you didn't, and now you have to pay the price. You dropped the ball on the bourse floor. The fact that the dealer offered to refund you any money was a decent gesture on his part. He could have simply told you to beat it. You still haven't convinced me this guy is wrong.

 

"Another dealer was selling a couple coins as AU50; the coins graded XF details, cleaning. He charged me a $35 restocking fee and was not happy as it affected his bottom line."

Sounds to me that this was not his first time doing this.
Wonder how may other "deals" he has had to do like this before he thought he was ahead of the "game".

I really feel sorry for the dealers, sellers, or other collectors that have dealings with guys like this.
Bill Collector
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I'd still like to know what dealer we are talking about.

 

I'm glad you were looking for a good for the grade coin but I don't see where the dealer "warranteed" the coin, unless you specifically asked him if you sent it in for grading and it did not come back what he said that he'd refund you. Obviously that didn't happen.

This is why many dealers do not put grades on the holders and when asked the grades they say "I grade it $400". Grading is an Art not a Science. I get that it was whizzed but there are still degree's of whizzing and it must have been light enough that it passed not only the dealer but you. And in my opinion you should be buying graded coins if you get this upset over this.

And yes I have bought coins that have graded higher then what the dealer stated it was so it does go both ways. As stated it's called Tuition.

 

Nothing you can do about it. Chalk it up to a learning experience. I agree with Doug--you didn't see that the coin was whizzed? That is really pretty obvious. Since so many bust dimes, quarters and halves are whizzed or harshly cleaned, avoid any that are not in a slab that isn't "details."

 

All grading company's, even the great NGC and PCGS can't get their grades the same from one coin to another and that is all they do.

 

I'd be curious, if you sold the slabbed coin back to him, if he shows up at the next show with it cracked out in a flip

 

That's for sure. I've seen some very bad grading of US Paper money done by PCGS.
Bill Collector

 

+1.... Live and learn.

 

It is not theft because the buyer can examine the coin, study it and decide if it makes the grade. If he thinks it does he buys, if not he passes. Since the buyer never gives up his money against his will it isn't an overt theft, although you could probably stretch it into theft by deception.

But did he make a description of FACT or of opinion? Since grade is always subjective, it is opinon. The TPG's call is also opinion. So what you have is a difference of opinion.

Law? And there is no express (Explicit) warranty, an implied warranty maybe but not an explicit one from just a grade on a holder.

Need to take it a step further "I guarantee that XYZ will grade it a Choice AU" Otherwise he is still just guarantying that HE says it is a Choice AU. He hasn't guaranteed that anyone else will. Grading is subjective and others can have different opinions so unless he states WHO will agree with him the guarantee is meaningless.