Returning problem coins

I agree

I think that if the dealer knew it was cleaned and didn't express that than he was in the wrong. Getting them grading is another thing since it discussed commonly here on this forum that the majority of older coins have been cleaned. I think if you are buying older coins to get them graded you would have to get good at detecting if a coin has been cleaned. You obviously overpaid though if you paid GS for a cleaned coin. I have bought whizzed coins at a deep discount from the list price on Numismedia.com or in the Redbook.

Can you post a picture of the coin in question?

 

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I'll be at the Danbury show tomorrow. If anyone has the capability to image, we could post here. Basically it looks semi-pl with even toning. It's a H10c, the smallest of the Bust coins. Basically I relied on the dealer's claims that it was a good coin, "choice AU+". Generally I look around for another set of eyes at a show that can give an unbiased expert judgment. Some shows it is hard to get that done and supposed "experts" that I have shown coins to generally smile approvingly at the coins I show them.

 

He did not misrepresent the grade. You said the flip was marked AU, it came back AU. I think the protocol would be to eat your losses.

Agreed, so then why is this the dealer's fault? You apparently had the opportunity to examine the coin before you paid for it (I haven't heard anything to the contrary). I agree with the others who say you should find another dealer. But I'm not seeing that the dealer is wrong here. He offered you half of what you paid. He could have just as easily given you an alternate location into which you could shove that coin. You had the opportunity to examine the coin in hand (no pictures) and forked over the money to buy it. If you want to gamble on coins, you pay your money and take your chances. But you do have the chance to even the odds in your favor. A closer examination of the coin by a knowledgeable buyer would have shown the whizzing. How many of those "sharp buyers" you showed the coin to would have actually bought it from this guy at his price? Or would they have passed?

Yep, apparently they do . Like somebody else said, don't assume all dealers or coin sellers are "experts". There's a big difference between "knowledgeable" and "expert".

Again, the link to the actual article did not work for me, but it seemed in one of the posts that these guys were selling mail order. As in the case with eBay, there may or may not be cause for concern. But (if I read your original post correctly) you bought the coin at a show, with the opportunity to view it (with magnification) before you handed the dealer your money. Bottom line...You saw the coin, had the chance to examine it, and (should have) bought it based on what you saw. You then sent the coin in for grading, and now several months later(?) it comes back as not what you thought (based on what the dealer said, and not, apparently, what you actually saw). You rolled the dice and lost. Not really this guy's fault.

 

Personally, I find out which car he drives. I then unscrew the airstem caps, place a small pebble inside each cap, then screw them back on just until I begin hearing a "hissing" sound...but that's just me. I don't condon that action by anyone else.

 

For me it's about accountability and a two way business practice, not one way where coins are bought as cheaply as they can be had, misrepresented biting lots of collectors, investors and dealers along the way. I have seen this too often and many seasoned collectors know who to avoid in terms of problem material and insignificant return policies. I don't know any other business where such practices prevail. Ebay for example was almost ruined by unscrupulous sellers and they feared legal action so they now come out on the side of the customer more than the seller usually. The case I cited had to do exactly with the same sort of activity but in much larger volume and once the senior citizens and others wised up to how much money they had lost, a class action suit ensued. I know one dealer who is particularly notorious for palming off on customers problem and misrepresented material. When a bunch of angry customers wanted their money back and he refused, they took it to the next higher level and got their money back. I'm not saying that full refunds should be the rule but I could see 75% or 80% return would be reasonable when it is proven and acknowledged that it is the same coin and that it was mis-represented. That should be a learning experience for the show dealer as well.

We should complain to the show managers about unfair business activity. We should also use the state consumer affairs department to make a record of unfair business practice. This thing about letting everything go and moving on is just not the way a civilized society should behave.

 

I agree if the difference is between a VF35 and an XF40...but this coin was whizzed!

When I began collecting, I was lucky enough to have a wonderful shop in Madison, Ct. The owner was a Numismatist named Bob ("Mr." to me) Deitel. Mr. Deitel was like a real estate agent for coins. I paid him a premium to provide/find quality coins...and he taught me what a quality coin was. That's what I think of when I think of a Dealer; that's what I expect a Dealer to be. Anyone that doesn't meet that high standard is CRAP...imo.

It's a question of ethics.

 

I agree, but on both sides. A coin bought sight seen in hand, without ( from what I gather) no question by the buyer, "Is this a problem coin, would you guarantee that?" or "if it comes back detail from a TPG, can I get a refund of purchase price?", and then the coin comes back at grade given, but whizzed ( how badly one doesn't know until a sharp magnified photo is posted ), why is the seller placed in the spotlight? because he didn't question the buyer as to whether he had the expertise to judge the coin himself, and not sell it if he didn't? I just don't get it. If I buy a coin this way and it came back details, the fault is mine, and I should take responsibility for it. If I can't tell "cleaning, whizzing, altered surfaces, environmental damage, pvc, etc., then I should learn before buying coins or stick to just buying PCGS, or NGC coins where I have recourse if they make a mistake in grading. JMHO.

 

You are right on the money! Take responsibility for your actions. Are you going to sue the cola company because the soda did not refresh you the way the adds said. Or for you young guys out there, did you try that body spray on T.V. and did all the girls on the street run to you like in the adds. I bet not, That is the problem nowadays everything is someone else fault, not yours.

 

It seems that no matter what anyone says your not going to accept reasonability for you own lack of knowledge in what your buying. Do you have any books on grading, and if you do how many times have you read them.

I was told a long, long, time ago by a very old knowledgeable collector, buy at least five books on what your collecting and read them at least twice before you buy your first item, even then you could still make a mistake.

We all make mistakes, no one is perfect, but most eat it up and learn from our mistakes. Like I said before, even TPG's make mistakes, I have had more than my share of TPG'ers mistakes, there human, so what makes you think that it's whizzed, just because one grader and maybe a few others that don't know how to grade said it's whizzed does not make it so, what would you do if you sent it to one of the other TPG's and it came back as an AU, would that make it right ?. It would still be the same coin, guys used to do this many times, buy a coin, have it graded, if it didn't grade high enough they would crack it out of the holder and sent it to a different TPG'er and hope it came back a higher grade. Maybe that's what you should do, give it a try, you never know, one of them may grade it a MS 60, bet that would make you happy.

Just curious , how old are you and how long have you been collecting ?.
Bill Collector

 

No, it's not. You seem to have a one-way attitude when it comes to this transaction. You want the dealer to be responsible for the loss, but are not willing to accept the responsibility for an apparent lack of knowledge in buying a coin that you examined (or should have) prior to making the purchase.

Bingo. And how did these collectors become seasoned? Experience. I'm sure they all got burned during the "seasoning". They chalk it up to a lesson learned. They don't come on an internet forum complaining.

Apples to oranges. Unscrupulous sellers on eBay used mail order, doctored or fuzzy pictures, bad written descriptions, or failure to send the merchandise. None of these factor into your situation. You had the coin in hand, had the magnification to closely examine it (or, maybe a rookie mistake not bringing a loupe to a coin show), had the opportunity to ask specific questions directly to the seller (has this coin been cleaned?, it looks like it's been whizzed) and hand the coin back if the answers to those questions were not to your satisfaction.

If this is not the dealer in question, then this statement is irrelevant. We all know some shady characters. Most of us avoid them.

I still think the case you cite is not the same. First of all, this was a large volume dealer. Are you implying the dealer in your case has "ripped off" thousands of customers. We really haven't established that he ripped you off yet.

Why complain to show managers? What was so unfair about this transaction? The dealer marked his flip as "AU". It came back "AU", details because of the whizzing. You had the opportunity to look at the coin, in hand, and ask the dealer if the marks you noticed were from cleaning or whizzing. Even if you did, and he said "No", you should have suspected (since in my scenario, you noticed suspicious marks and asked) this was a problem coin, and put your money back in your pocket and walked away.

I'm still siding with the dealer on this one. It still doesn't look like he did anything blatantly wrong.

 

Obviously it wasn't the understanding or we wouldn't be having this discussion. You told him you send all your coins in for grading, that's nice, so what? Did he tell you that if it didn't come back at his grade with no problem he would buy it back? If not all the "understanding" was on your part. You told him one thing but he didn't tell you anything. Sure he understands that you are going to send it in, but there is no obligation set forth on his part. I feel for you buddy, but in hand sight seen purchases are typically as is unless SPECIFICALLY stated otherwise such as with a specific guarantee that it will grade problem free or will grade at a specific grade etc.

 

It's called tuition. When I first started collecting I had tons of raw coins that I later found out had problems. Over a 4 year period I had bought Lincoln cents that had been tooled, whizzed, recolored, intentionally toned, etc. I had others that were winners as well, I just didn't know the difference at the time.

Looking back I figure I had 10g in this collection when I started sending them into tpgs. I quickly learned some lessons. I took some lumps for sure and the winners mostly covered the mistakes and after I got out of that set of coins I mostly broke even on the dough but then I could see the problems and had the education. I started collecting again with new eyes and even attended the summer seminar grading week, more tuition. I now enjoy buying raw coins that are tpg gradeable but usually use the info to buy solid coins for the grade already slabbed.

Even still, I recently bought a 10d Indian raw that pcgs said was cleaned. I would never go back to my dealer can cry on his shoulder or look for one here. It could have easily come back a 63 and then what, brag about how good I made out? I took a shot and that's the hobby, interesting on so many levels..

Matt

 

I began collecting before there was a PCGS or NGC...the Dealer provided those assurances as a numismatic expert. I guess I was fortunate early on to meet a Dealer that considered himself a "Buyer's Agent"; he was a teacher and investment adviser. He would never knowingly misrepresent a coin to a customer then think, "...you better know as much about coins as I if you expect a square deal."

The question here is..."What did the Dealer know and when did he know it?". If the Dealer accurately represented the coin (as he knew it), I agree, it's on the Buyer to suck it up...then find a Dealer that knows his profession. If, on the other hand, the dealer knowingly sells non-gradable coins as significantly higher priced, gradable coins...how is that not theft? What if the Dealer whizzed the coin himself? We'll never know.

What worries me is the deterioration of "ethics" in the coin business. I increasingly get the impression that quasi-numismatists sincerely believe the money they make by successfully misrepresenting coins is their "reward" for all their hard work. You hear folks say it all the time on CT..."caveat emptor".

 

Still making the assumption that this guy is an "Expert". Not everybody who plunks down the cash, unfolds a table, and spreads out his wares to sell is an expert. It doesn't even make him a dealer. It makes him a seller. I don't believe the coin show organizers test the vendors for their levels of expertise. They take the money and assign them spots. They may filter for shady behavior, but this would be by word of mouth and reputation, and if this guy wasn't a problem before, there would be no reason he would be one on that particular day. So he passes all the tests to be a seller at this particular show. The guy I deal with weekly is a retired mail carrier who is a also a long-time collector, buying and selling coins at the local flea market. Knowledgeable, experienced, but would not call himself an expert. Will give you his opinion on a coin on his table as to grade and condition, but will always qualify that with "look and decide for yourself". I buy from him nearly every weekend.

There has been no reason given to believe this guy passed the coin off as anything other than what he thought it was, an AU half dime. Nowhere in the original post does the OP mention that the seller assured him that the coin was problem-free. Even at that, the OP had the opportunity to examine the coin in hand (no fuzzy, blurry, or photo-shopped pictures) and make his own determination as to the actual condition of the coin. Nor does the OP state he asked any questions regarding this coin before he handed over his cash. As I read the original post, the OP bought the coin at what he believed was a decent price (Grey Sheet Bid), then sent it off to ANACS for grading, hoping the graded coin would be worth more for resale. Since he (the OP) now puts himself in the same class as the show vendor, doesn't he have just as much responsibility as an expert dealer to know the actual value and condition of the coin as the original seller?

"Caveat Emptor" is appropriate in this situation.

 

Owle,

What if that coin which the dealer thought might be a Choice AU, actually was a weak strike and had no wear. When ANACS returned it, it came back in nice MS63 holder. What would you have done then? When you can give an honest answer to that question, I think we will know the answer for the reverse.

Mike

 

I had a dealer offer me a 16d mercury dime, counterstamped with the letter F, he wanted 300 for it, I told him I would give him 300 for it, if it were submitted and came back genuine, the coin itself would have graded a solid fine, but I suspected that someone got a fake and was mad enough to stamp an f on it to warn other collectors.

He did not take the deal, so I think that he might have had his suspicions about the coin also.

 

When I speak of a "Dealer", I think of a seasoned professional in an established brick & mortar store. However, the OP didn't indicate where he met this person...other to say that they've had a recurring business relationship.

It seems odd that any Dealer would discard a productive business relationship over a mistake (let's call it an honest mistake made by both). If I'm paying a premium to a Dealer to act as my numismatic investment adviser, I wouldn't think an "Ooops, my bad." is too much to expect.

 

I think that the issue seems that the purchase was a while ago. If you bought the coin, posted it here and someone told you it was whizzed, you may be able to return it before submitting it. I would think buying raw coins and then submitting them would cause the coin to increase in value. I would think that there is fundamental issues with doing this based on topics discussed all the time on this forum.

1. Determining if a coin has been cleaned is the most difficult thing to do in collecting causing misdiagnosis to occur often.
2. 80% of older coins have been cleaned.

If you are submitting older coins to be graded, I would think you need to become very good at detecting if a coin had been cleaned. This is just my opinion. I don't really know how it works when you buy a coin from a show and a significant amount of time as passed and you want to return it for any reason. I know that sellers should disclose if a coin has been cleaned if it is known but it may not be.

 

I think this explains the OP's relationship with this particular dealer:

I'm guessing this isn't a very "productive business relationship" for the dealer in question. It's an honest mistake by the OP; he looked at the coin in hand, didn't ask questions, and bought it hoping it would grade into a higher price. It didn't, so he wants the dealer to take the hit. No accountability for his own action, an "I messed up, it can't be my fault, get me out of it now" mentality. There was nothing that said the dealer misrepresented the coin, other than he didn't point out (maybe because he didn't notice either?) that the coin was whizzed. But the OP didn't notice it either. And I gather he wasn't forced to buy the coin, but did so voluntarily.

I'll say this because I don't look at coin collecting as an investment, anymore than my woodworking hobby is an investment: If you want to rely on a coin show vendor to be your "numismatic investment adviser", maybe you should think about other investment opportunities. These dealers are not investment counselors, they are retail sellers looking to turn a profit.

Had the OP purchased this coin from eBay, and showed the auction, listing pictures, and photos after he received it, he would have a valid argument, and I would tend to be a little more sympathetic to his dilemma. But he didn't, he purchased it by examining the actual coin, in hand. His failure to properly evaluate the coin before paying for it is the cause of his issue, not the vendor ripping him off. Back to your investment comment, if you want to make money buying and selling coins, you really need to know what you're looking at. The dealer is in this to make a profit, don't expect him to cut his own throat so you can make money.