Does CAC hurt prices of non stickered coins?

So tpg's add value to the coin, and cac adds more value to the same coin. That makes
uncertified coins less valuable. Plastic and stickers have their own value.

 

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In general I'm not so sure that the sticker effects FMV. Rather, I do think that the sticker has much more to do with the saleability. If you offer two very similar slabbed coins; same grade, similar eye appeal, same TPG, etc. the stickered slab will sell first in 95% of the time.

 

Not necessarily.

A slabbed coin can sell for the coin's FMV for the graded opinion on the label, wherein a raw coin would not.

Take a certified coin in MS64 from the TPG, and a raw one; same date and mint, in the same grade. The slabbed can sell for FMV for that coin in that grade, wherein, the raw one, the offers would be lowball at best.

Why? Because as a collecting community, the majority place reliability on the TPG's grade opinion, as opposed to buyer and seller agreeing on the grade for a raw coin.

Should a coin be held below FMV simply because it's not in a slab? No. If the coin has all the criteria needed for a MS64 grade, it's a MS64. You don't really need a label on a slab to say it is.

As stated in another thread, collectors have become too reliant on the opinion on a label, and many don't really put the effort into educating themselves on grading coins. However, what happens if the opinion from the TPG is wrong? TPGs do under/over grade coins, and many circulated coins have been graded as MS.

 

If markets are efficient, I don't see how CAC doesn't lower the value of non-CAC coins. Given the assumption CAC certifies the upper half of a grade, and these coins historically have received stronger prices than coins in the lower half of the grade, mathematically how would the lower half of the grade continue to see the same "average" prices when the stronger coins have been removed from the averages? Simple math I do not see how unstickered coins retain their same book value. Now, as a practical matter, the coins value is unchanged, if it was a low end 64 before CAC, its still a low end 64, but its "book value" as unstickered I believe would have to go lower.

This is not even talking about overgraded TPG coins, which as we all know exist and continue to exist since no one is stupid enough to crack them out like they do undergraded coins. All of these would also lower the "book value" of unstickered coins, further putting pressure on book prices of non-CAC coins.

 

It depends on what you collect. I'd say you are mostly right for common coins like Morgans and Barbers. But, take old copper for instance. Most serious collectors won't buy slabbed copper because it makes it difficult, if not impossible to attribute, which is what most copper guys like to do. So, in this instance a slab inhibits a collectors ability to identify a coin, therefore making it nearly unsellable. This may account for the reason you don't see a lot of slabbed and beaned old copper.
Guy

 

Can someone say "rattlers"?

 

No, they add liquidity to the coin. When the coin is certified, everybody has the confidence to pay price guide for the coin because the accept the grade assigned by the TPG and are guaranteed to get an authentic piece. When a coin is raw, the number of people with the grading & authentication skills to confidently evaluate the coin drops considerably. You can sell it for the same price as a certified coin, but you will need to wait until one of those people with the requisite skills shows up as a buyer.

In my experience, if you try to sell a raw coin that is accurately graded, most buyers will be willing to spend retail price of the next lowest grade as a way to hedge against what the TPG's will say and grading fees.

 

I do not disagree. I will say, even with slabs I see dealers playing the "it really could be graded higher, (when its theirs), or "that is an overgraded coin, no way that is an XXXX", (when buying). some dealers will always be that way, regardless of what you are trying to buy or sell from them.

But, I fully agree there is a degree of comfort, especially as to authenticity, added with a TPG slab.

 

People who are committed to buying coins in slabs with stickers on them ought to be committed.

 

Dealers absolutely do what you are claiming. They tout the coins they are selling as undergraded by a point. They tell people who are selling to them that their coins are overgraded by a point. The difference between this and the old west (pre-TPG) is the degree to which they can get away with it. Before the TPG's they would buy coins as AU and sell them as GEM BU.

I want to be clear, not every dealer who touts his coins as PQ or undergraded is bad. Some dealers have a business model that is basically what the CAC does, identify the cream of the crop and charge higher prices. I have done this myself with some of my coins.

 

Eddie, while I understand you sentiment, consider this. What if the collector in question is a box of 20 type collector who only buys 4 figure coins? What would be your advice to him about slabbed vs raw?

 

You're going to have to give me the kindergarten version of that question, Paul. I don't quite understand what you're asking.

PS: As you'll recall, though, I'm sure, we've been over this ground, before. Give Chris his chance. I don't like to be a hog, much less have to repeat myself.

 

Okay, there is my contribution to this endless debate. Since the past week has had non-stop trashing of CAC, I decided to go out and find a nicely priced, really attractive Morgan Dollar that was a "CAC piece of dreck." It was not a very big challenge, as there were many coins that were not priced out of the stratosphere, by virtue of being CAC. Now, the PCGS price guide on this coin was $185.00, which is around the going rate for it in MS 65. Given that this was toned, a nice specimen, and CAC endorsed, it cost me $190.00. I'd hardly call that a back-breaking premium, given the fact that it is a clean 65 and has a nice tone. So, thanks for debating this one, as it prompted me to find a coin that was not overpriced with a CAC designation for my collection!

 

I dont know if its just a bad picture, but I would say that it doesnt have a very good eye appeal. does it look better in hand?

 

What was bid/ask? I find PCGS pretty high with their price guides.

Still, you paid over a high priced price guide for the coin. Still sounds like you paid a premium.

Hey, premiums are fine, I have paid premiums for above average coins often. Anyoen who expects a decent collection only paying a discount will end up with a bunch of crummy coins. No harm there.

My only point on this thread would be if this premium coin is now considered in the CAC camp, its above average price will no longer be averaged into non-CAC 1885 65's. As such, you would think mathematically non-CAC 1885 65's average price would have to decline. A coin prices itself, but averages get affected when you start pulling out the premium coins from a group.

 

Bid/Ask is kind of meaningless on a coin like this, as you don't see too many 65s as nice as that going for bid/ask. It would go closer to price guide, which is not out of line for a specimen that is considered superior. This one went within 5 bucks of price guide, which is far from insane. As regards eye appeal to the previous poster, it looks gorgeous in hand--nice rosy glow and golden tone. Picture is a bit dull--my bad. Here is one in better light, that shows the gold tone.

 

Paul, I still don't know quite what you're asking, but maybe if I say this, it will at least answer a piece of it. Let's get our heads out of the sand. What dedicated "collector" of anything buys the thing sight-unseen just based on what somebody else says about it? I didn't get my lovely wife that way. My point is, sure, slabs and stickers have their use, but only in terms of investment, not collecting, in that they're indicia of marketability. That's it. That's all they're good for. Oh, and maybe attributions when authenticity is at issue.

 

Please excuse the off topic nature of this post........

Hobo had a dragnet out on you a few weeks ago dear fellow.

 

...but isn't bid/ask the general price estimate for ALL 65's? That is kind of what we are comparing in this thread, CAC prices versus general 65 prices. As such, I believe the premium you paid versus bid/ask would be more appropriate versus a higher priced "premium quality" price guide.

Not disagreeing its a pretty coin sir. I like the luster and the color is pleasing in my eye. Just asking what the premium was versus the run of the mill 1885 65.