The CAC Dreck Thread

The strike has always been irrelevant to the technical or condition grade but as it has a bearing on "eye appeal" it's relevant to the market or money grade. The 1898-O isn't the crispest of strikes around and that's why I'd imagine that coin stickered as good for the MS66 market. There's a tiny distraction left of ear, but that's it.

 

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I have been surfing the CAC coins in Heritage's archives and I think I finally found a CAC Dreck. Here is a 1923 Peace Dollar PCGS MS65 with dynamite luster and good strike but the surfaces, specifically the focal area of the obverse, shows far more chatter than I think is acceptable for a solid gem example.



1923 Peace Dollar PCGS MS65 CAC Dreck Heritage Archive

What say you guys?

 

Here here. I quit collecting US coins before CAC, so I guess I am forbidden as well.

One question though. In your OP Paul you wish people to post CAC certified dreck. Why the HECK would someone BUY a coin they believe was overgraded, (with or without a CAC sticker)? WHY, even if I were still buying US coins, would have I bought an overgraded coin simply on the off chance Paul may wish me to post it some day?

I do have one slabbed, (non CAC), ancient coin I can post that has the wrong grade, wrong emperor, wrong RIC attribution, and wrong date on it if you like. I don't bandsaw that slab since it makes me giggle.

 

I have owned numerous CAC coins over the years---probably as many as 60 or 70, with my biggest collection sold a couple of years ago. With collection #5, there are only a couple. However, I LOVE them, unlike some of the folks who incessantly complain about the CAC "scam." If it is a scam, scam me some more, please. I have never submitted a coin for the CAC bean, but have paid premiums to buy them, unhesitatingly, as I KNOW they're superior for the grade.

 

Huh?????

You really have me confused Chris. A major theme by the CAC/TPG haters is, it is all margeting, and the "short bus" folks as you call them are just blinding buying these coins because they are too lazy to learn how to grade so they just blindly accept the words of the TPG's/CAC.

These are your words

I am simply stating that TPG facilitates laziness. What percentage of collectors can intelligently discuss the grade of a slabbed morgan nowadays? How many can go into differences in prime focal areas versus non-prime areas? Soft strike, planchet defects, mint/date differences, etc? Fact is, most collectors and dealers accept the TPG as fact and don't question it. They have been conditioned by slabs that learning to grade and authenticate is pointless as someone else is doing it for them.



If that is still you position, CAC dreck should be showing up everywhere because these "short bus" buyers do not know any better and would b buying overgraded coins since they do not know the difference on their own.


So which is it. Are these buyers just randoming buying any dreck that comes their way with a sticker on it, or do they know better and do not want to buy an overgraded coin. You cannot have it both ways.

​

 

Mike, my response you post was in response to TPG generically. TPG generically overgrades coins, labels AU's as MS, gives grade bumps routinely for certain dates or attributes, etc.

I didn't say a thing about CAC in that conversation, and if truth be told am a supporter of CAC if we are forced to live in a TPG world. I simply wish CAC would call out the TPG on the issues I stated. If they did, and CAC only stickered coins that didn't have grade bumps, etc then I would hail them as the anti-TPG and maybe even start buying some US coins again, (with a CAC sticker).

 

There are two types of collectors. The type that collects coins and the type that collects acronyms.

 

Evidence of that are the number of threads here at CT, started by new members, asking the basic of collecting questions, some of which would be considered collecting 101.

Why put any effort into it when someone else will do it for you?

One of the first statements to recruits by SDIs, "I am not your mommy and daddy. This is Marine Corps recruit training."

 

Don't forget those who are coin investors :thumb:

 

It would be interesting to know how many instances have occurred that people with this philosophy have been "taken" on the internet by purchasing problem coins. Thank God that eBay/PayPal has changed to a "pro-buyer" stance no matter what!

Chris

 

Well yeah, that is exactly what CAC does. By "call out" they do not write letters to Coin World. etc. but they in fact DO NOT sticker that coin. That is the statement they make. By not stickering, they either believe the coin is in the bottom third of the grade or not deserving of the grade at all. That seems exactly what you are looking for. Maybe you were looking for more hype and hoopla, but not stickering the coin makes a huge statement.

Now if your argument is they do not do a good job at this, that is a bit different. But that was the whole point of Lehigh's thread. Let's see all those coins where CAC screrewed up, but we have seem very little evidence of that. Just the opposite, it seems there is not of CAC dreck out there. Now this is the point where you questioned the validity of the post by asking:

One question though. In your OP Paul you wish people to post CAC certified dreck. Why the HECK would someone BUY a coin they believe was overgraded, (with or without a CAC sticker)? WHY,

​

From you point of view, the answer is simple. I don't even know why you would ask it. They would buy overgraded coins just as easily and correctly graded coins, because they are the "short bus" collectors. They don't know the difference becasue they didn't take the time to learn how to grade.

So to tie it all together, if CAC is doing a bad job of doing the double check on the TPG, from you beliefs, there should be CAC dreck every where since the "short bus collector's" don't know the difference. But we just do not see that. We see very little CAC Dreck The only logical conclusion, they in fact are doing a good job.

I am sure you would have to agree.
Welcome to the club Buddy

 

So, a collector who knows how to grade will not buy an overgraded coin so therefor will not have an example for Paul. A collector who does not know how to grade buys a CAC but but does not know how to grade so doesn't KNOW he has an example Paul is looking for so therefor doesn't post.

Basically, Paul's thread is self serving since an experienced grader won't have any, an inexperienced one will not know he does, so Paul appears like a genius in that no one can post an overgraded CAC coin. Sound about right?

Btw, I STILL don't know how I got embroiled in this whole CAC thing since I NEVER CLAIMED CAC was doing a bad job. I have just been jumped on like I had. I am simply saying right now Paul's post is self serving, and he already knows that. He knows exactly what I wrote about in the first two paragraphs here, he is just trying to create a fallacious argument to support his views, (again, views I have NEVER EVEN disagreed with).

 

But Doug,

Of Course both happens, but you took that out of context. That was referring to Chris arguing both sides of the coin (so to speak) to prove his point. You just cannot make the argument that folks don't know what they are doing and buy anything with a sticker on it and then try to explain that we are not seeing a lot of CAC Dreck being posted because who would be stupid enough to buy and over graded coin.

Lets face it, if there were a lot of CAC Dreck out there if and BOTH things were happening, we would see the dreck showing up. Now we know there are exception, but do you see a LOT of CAC Dreck out there?

Mike

 

Medoraman, when I have felt as if I was dragged into a debate about a topic that I had not known I was going to discuss or where I felt as though my words were being misused, I have simply set the record straight in a short, fact-based post and left the matter at that. Those who are rational will read the post and understand; those with an agenda will attack, but they would do that anyway.

 

What the heck are you talking about. The rules created in this thread were not in any way designed to prohibit anybody from offering their comments/opinions. I asked each member posting to provide their experience with the CAC because it is relevant to the discussion. Or perhaps you think that someone who has never seen a CAC certified coin in hand can actually give an informed opinion. If your experience with CAC coins is comprised of viewing them at shows and B&M shops, then there is nothing stopping you from telling us in your post, like you just did.

Furthermore, what makes you unqualified to judge the CAC is the fact that you undergrade every coin by 1-2 points. Go ahead, tell me I am wrong. Tell me you don't think that Peace Dollar I posted is an MS63.

I guess parrotting Doug's subversive post is going to be the defense of the CAC critics. How pathetic!

And Mike and I have already answered your question, several times. So I guess people who collect TPG certified coins are lazy plastic collectors but those who buy CAC certified coins are all experience collectors with excellent grading skills huh?


In the end, both of you guys did break the rules of this thread. I asked people to provide an example of CAC Dreck, neither of you could do it! Don't worry Doug, we know the reason for your refusal to show an example is that it won't change anyone's mind, so why do it. And we continue to take that for what it is, a cop out!

 

Even if someone manages to post a CAC dreck coin, Paul, you'll never be satisfied with their answer, because it would be one person's opinion, over another, over another, over another....and we'd go around in circles forever. Plain and simple, no matter their reasons, there are and will forever be, those who like CAC and those who don't, and no amount of debate will change either side's minds or opinions. Persoanlly, I don't like or dislike them. I've bought them many times, but not for the sticker or the slab, as they've all been cracked out. I enjoy the debate as much as you do,but on this subject I don't see it going anywhere we haven't been a million times before.
Guy

 

Stop it, just stop it. This thread is in no way self serving and you know it. You are making an argument that I debunked before you ever made your first post in this thread. Please read the following post of mine very carefully, specifically the bolded sentence.

I think it is hysterical that since nobody can actually provide an example of CAC Dreck, they feel the need to resort to cry foul. Nothing more than an act of desperation if you ask me.

 

C'mon Chris,

Not jumping on you, just a debate. I do see you point now though, glad to see you do think CAC does a good job. As far as Paul's thread, remember his rules stated that anyone could post a coin off ANY web site. He does not need to own the coin. So if ANYONE (experts not excluded) see's such a coin anywhere, it is fair game as long as the poster states it is not his coin. In my mind, that makes the thread valid, and not a fallacius argument to support his views. Just my Humble Opinion.