CAC stickers don't bring premiums ?

Nothing new on the CAC articles. Before we got the "remove your CAC stupidity" a few weeks ago, these same debates took place. The simple, irrefutable fact is that CAC coins sell for more, retain their value, and for the grade are generally better looking. If one wants to dismiss that, plus the benefits of TPGs and CAC endorsements, go right ahead. Buy raw coins, and take your chances that your grading ability is as good or better than the professionals. That isn't sound collecting--it is merely an exercise in ego, and self-gratification that one is a "master collector," and better at the hobby than the acknowledged experts. The word for that is hopelessly naive.

There are some on this board that set themselves up as "experts on grading," or present themselves as professional malcontents. I don't see how either position is defensible, or productive to the hobby. We have TPGs and we have CAC endorsements, and that is not going to change. Dinosaurs became extinct, as they could not adapt. Same is true with the coin hobby--third and fourth party evaluations are here to stay, so either learn to live with them, or be a professional malcontent.

 

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FWIW to the debate, I've got a friend who invests in fine art. I'm afraid to tell him the Picasso sketch he has in his library has been hanging upside-down for like some nine years.

 

I'm not a proponent of TPG's or CAC, by a long shot. But, to be fair, it's not these services that are driving the cost of coins graded and stickered by them, nor do I believe it to be their intentions. It's the misguided sellers and those who buy from them that raise the prices thinking such things demand more money. Place blame where it lies...with greedy dealers and collectors who fabricate premiums from nothing.
Guy

 

I am simply stating that TPG facilitates laziness. What percentage of collectors can intelligently discuss the grade of a slabbed morgan nowadays? How many can go into differences in prime focal areas versus non-prime areas? Soft strike, planchet defects, mint/date differences, etc? Fact is, most collectors and dealers accept the TPG as fact and don't question it. They have been conditioned by slabs that learning to grade and authenticate is pointless as someone else is doing it for them.

Btw, really Morgandude? You do not think you can outgrade a professional when they have to do so many grades per day? I don't even really COLLECT US coins any more, and I am sure I can go to a show and find quite a few slabs everyone here would admit are overgraded, undergraded possibly but everyone and their brother look for those. Fact is even if you accept only 1% of coins are overgraded, the problem is these NEVER get resubmitted, so the error rate goes up even further due to attrition. Couple this with millions upon millions of slabbed coins today, the number has to be in the tens if not hundreds of thousands of overgraded slabs assuming only a 1% error rate. You cannot spot one coins out of tens or hundreds of thousands of examples that are in error? And you accuse us of an "exercise in ego"? I would accuse you of blind faith in a man-made, for profit corporation that is beholden in their grading to no one but their shareholders myself. Want to increase profits? Loosen up grading standards to encourage a slew of resubmissions to achieve higher grades, and generate a huge boost in profits and share price. NO, that could NEVER happen........

As for me being a "dinosaur" or "professional malcontent", I guess whatever. I spend sometimes $1000 or more a month on coins, and am only 43. I am thinking this dinosaur is not going extinct for quite a while.

Btw, no offense meant Morgandude, I am simply reacting to what I read as a portrayal of me in yoru post. I don't have to apologize to Paul since I assume he knew I was just kidding with the "short bus collecting" line.

 

My feeling is if a dearler is selling then the CAC adds value, same dealer buying the CAC adds NO value.
This is from 1st hand dealings.

 

+1

 

Chris,

The short bus joke was funny, so no offense taken, but wow, do you have this wrong. You cannot judge every collector from your own point of view. As far as collecting goes, you and me are at polar opposites. I know you like to collect many coins and by you own admission, do not even know all the coins you have. You also believe once you buy a coin, the money is spent, and there is no thought on reselling.

Me, I only have around 40 coins. Also, coins flow in and out of my collection to keep things fresh. I buy a few, sell a few, look for better quality etc. etc. Every coin I buy, before I even THINK about buying it, I THINK about selling it first. Is there a good market for this coin? Now I can't believe I am going to say this out loud on CT but more times than not I can sell the coin for a small profit <gasp>. Say it isn't so..... How can that be.... The TPG coins make this possible. I am not an expert grader, not even a good grader, but I am not clueless, and I can choose a coin with nice characteristics, good strike, good tone. A coin that is appealing to me and to someone else for resale time. The slabbed coins provides liquidity that a RAW coin just cannot. There are just too many variables

Now the part about being lazy is just not true. It takes a lot of work and knowledge to sort through all those coins and figure out which ones are worth paying a premium for, which ones are not, the difference between a good deal and just a cheap coin. I put more effort into this than most. Heck, I only have 40 coins, so I take my time.

Also to sort through the thousands of coins, it must be done on-line. Going to shows and B&M's just does not give you enough exposure to the 100's of thousands of coins out there. When you are buying these coins from a photograph, the TPG coin is the only realistic way to go. If you see a MS 66 Buff, even though the photo might not be perfect, you can look for specific details that should be present on a well struck coin, and then rely on the 66 grade for it having decent surfaces and luster. Strike details can easily be seen in a photo, but surfaces are real tough. So the TPG makes it a bit easier to choose that desirable coin.
Now you just need to evaluate price. There are so many coins out there, good deals can be found. TPG's make the search easier and provide the liquidity when you sell.

From your collecting point a view, I understand why TPG coins are not your favorite. You look at a coin, evaluate it, if you like it, buy it. If the liquidity on that coin is not good, so be it, you are not selling anyway. I completely understand why TPG fees are just an uneeded expense for you , but try to look at it from my side of the mountain, the picture is different.

Mike

 

Fair enough Mike. I appreciate your thoughtful response. I fully admit I am a hoarder, and also know that my wishes do not apply to today's day and age of someone pragmatically doing the best they can with the situation they are in. I never begrudge anyone "playing the game". I just think the game is rigged, and somehow always get drug into these arguments.

 

That is wrong. They have NO BUSINESS MODEL if they aren't adding monetary value to the coins and they darn well know it.

 

Monetary value to the "coins?" What coins? I don't see any--oh, those things! They're right in the middle, right? Man, to tell you the truth, among all those stars, plusses, and stickers, I didn't even notice anything was there.

 

So, CAC coins are shown to fetch a premium in a study....

Ruben, true to form, uses this as a validation of his theory they add artificial value.

Instead of simply concluding out they do a very good job of identifying good coins that should sell for more, just as the TPGs do a very good job of grading/pricing coins and those coins sell for more than their raw counterparts....rather than sending his own coins in and seeing if he agrees or disagrees in specific cases...he picks out web pictures and second guesses photo interpretation. Then when presented with real evidence of the additional value as realized in the real market, he twists that too.

Ruben, You're smarter than that. Take your cynic's hat off and see things with a less jaundiced eye -- you might be surprised what you find....Mike

 

I have no horses in this race but that argument is presumptive and holds no logic. First, we have seen coins stickered by CAC which are not in the upper or average part of the grading range. You can search the archives to find the exampleaaa.

Secondly, not all coins that of superior or correct grade have a CAC stickers, obviously. In fact, probably very few do.

This is an example of the inclusive set theory rule which I suggest you learn. Take a logic class. I can not teach set theory.

If the green sticker brings a premium, then the only conclusion is that the sticker has its own value.

There is no other logical conclusion that can be proven. All arguments against this logic are thus far emotionalism and unsubstantiated by the facts. One can bring a logic argument that countermands what I just wrote should present it, but this is my only and one post ever on this topic. Its not a post on CAC but the validity of an argument.

 

:dead-horse:


CAC Stickers do not bring premiums, superior coins bring premiums.

 

That is just too cute for words. You suggest I take a logic class, yet you use your logic and come up with a totally wrong conclusion. The green sticker does not have it's own value as you suggest, it only represents value.

Here is where you went wrong. The fact that we have seen substandard CAC coins has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. The system is not perfect, but the fact is CAC does a great job in identifying superior coins and a few exceptions does not make the system invalid. If you believe that CAC cannot identify good coins on a consistent basis, that is your choice, but a few bad examples does not do anything to prove your point. No one ever said CAC gets it right every time. If you still choose to believe CAC cannot select solid and premium coins on a consistent basis, I would just like to point out that most of serious folks in the coin world disagree. I would also point out in previous posts that you yourself stated, you do not know how to grade coins, so I don't understand how you have the ability to rate CAC.

Now your point about inclusive set theory. This is just not a mathematical proof where all conditions must be met. A large enough sub set is all we need to draw very valid conclusions. I really hope you can see the difference here, because from a strict scientific point of view, my point cannot be proven, but that sword cuts both ways. Your conclusion cannot be proven either. In fact, you logic seems to be the green sticker must have its own value since we do not have an inclusive set to prove otherwise. Like it or not, that is what you said. Its all there in black and white.

Now your assumption that there are very few coins of correct or superior grade that are stickered may even be correct, but it is very, very misleading. If you read the article, the CAC sticker sees to hold more value in the higher priced coins, and that is what we are really concerned about. I am sure there are very few $10 - $100 dollars coins with CAC stickers. Why, well the reason should be obvious. I mean why pay $15 plus shipping both ways to sticker a cheap coin. Now as we move up the scale, more and more coins start being submitted to CAC. This is obvious. If you have a $1500 dollar coin and you want to sell it. You think it is premium for the grade, why on Earth would you not submit it to CAC first, before selling. Ruben article tells you that stickered coins command a premium. So you see, as we get into coins of more value, this subset of CAC submitted coins gets much, much larger. While the subset will never be 100% inclusive, almost all would have to agree, it is large enough to draw very valid conclusions. If there is any doubt that the subset is not large enough, go out and look at only 4 digit coins and see the large quantity of CAC stickered coins in that neighborhood. Now from this subset, when you start to look at the coins, and I mean many, many of the coins, it does become obvious that the stickered coins are in fact a higher quality. So now we are back to the original point. For the same money, why would you buy a non-stickered coin, if you could get a stickered counterpart for the same price.

So just a question to sum it up. You have $2000 to spend on a coin. You see coin A with a sticker and coin B which is the same Grade/Date/MM, but no sticker. It really takes an expert to discern levels within a grade and you are looking at these coins on-line. You admit that you do not know how to grade coins. Which one do you pick?

I am looking forward to your sharp tongued response.

BTW if there are mistakes with my grammar, spelling etc., that is because I am practically illiterate, my logic on the other hand is flawless

Mike

 

Sorry Mike, but I can not resist. You are just too easy of a target.

a = $1000
b = $1000
then
a=b

a + cac = 1500
b = 1000

subtract...

a - b + cac = 500

cac = $500

Every dealer who uses CAC knows this.

If Cacfee = $20
and CAC = $500

===> Demand Increases for CACfee

= Successful Business Model


I can't draw the fee versus CAC premium curve. But sufice to say if the fee was greater than the premium NOBODY would use the service. Therefor it is necessary for the CAC service to add an excessive premium over the cost of the service in order to create profits for CAC.

Now I'm done..

Amanda

 

I'll go ahead and show you how stupid I am. I think Amanda's statement should read: "if the fee was more than the premium...." Please correct my correction if I'm wrong.

 

....LOLs

Let me put these on......it's getting deep in here.....

 

This whole argument has degenerated into nonsense--first, questioning the business model is total insanity. TPGs and CAC are making money hand over fist, as are sellers who sell these coins. So it cannot possibly be the "business model" that is faulty--it is one's attitude to the business model that one might have that contradicts use of the services, and call into question the process. To question the business model is just beyond naive--TPGs (love them or hate them) have provided a tremendous and mutually lucrative coin market for buyers and sellers alike. CAC has added to that market, and that is hardly a "bad business model." You may not like that scenario, and not want to participate in it, but to question its legitimacy as a business and to disparage it is really silly and immature. Don't like it? Don't use it. I don't like Chevrolets, so I don't buy them. However, that isn't denigrating a working market, as lots of folks do love Chevies. It is a personal objection, just as this whole TPG/CAC rant has become.

The 'Lazy Collector" remark was insensitive, and probably not applicable to most of the dedicated and sincere collectors here. I know it doesn't apply in my case, as I do my homework. If I choose to believe in the validity of TPGS and 4th party endorsements of same, that doesn't make me a lazy or inept collector--once again, that is just bias talking.