Customs block coin movements

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=141689

 

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Wow crazy.

Yet they cant stop the chinese fakes to come in...

 

or the Bulgarian fakes. The coins looked rather ordinary to me.

 

The two on the middle left are the common Histiaia, Euboia Tetrobols

 

Chinese fakes are getting better.It is worrying because modern technology can easily reproduce centuries old coins.
There are so many people getting caught out.TPG's must have info on what to look for so spread your knowledge.

 

A thread about government seizures of coins, and we're talking about fakes and TPG's. Sigh.

 

Bulgarian law holds that anything found buried in the ground belongs to the state. Any coins or antiquities found being exported without an export license (which are basically impossible to get) are confiscated on grounds of cultural heritage. Nothing can be sold openly so a major blackmarket and smuggling racket exists. Customs becomes much more through because confiscations becomes an income source for the government.

 

I understand that. The whole situation is perfectly legal in the eyes of Bulgarian law. I'm just disappointed that the best we could come up with was the same tired discussion of fakes and TPG's, especially considering the varied political views we have here! If we don't open our eyes and join in the global dialogue on topics like this, coin collecting itself will be put in danger. "Cultural property" with regard to coins is defined by some countries as anything more than a century old. That would make your large cents and bust halves illegal to own.

 

Exactly. How much longer will it be before MAssachusetts declares all Oak, Pine, and willow trees to be their cultural heritage and asks the US to confiscate any outside their state lines? Will CT try to retrieve all CT colonials? I am afraid all other collectors are simply sticking their heads in the sand concerning the fight ancient collectors are having with the State department.

To throw a bone to the chinese crowd, I would say have all chinese fakes declared Chinas "modern heritage", and THEN maybe a few of them would get stopped by customs at least.

What is REALLY sad is customs are stopping REAL chinese coins under these rules, but allow in all Chinese fakes! I even heard of a coin shipment being stopped, and coins that looked chinese were confiscated under the State department directive, but the rest of the shipment of fake coins were let go, since they were not "Chinese heritage property".

 

All those "local" regulations are based on Unesco conventions regarding cultural property. And yes, the bottom line is that objects which are older than 100 years may be subject to export restrictions. What is illegal to own in the US, however, is basically up to the US.

Christian

 

http://www.accg.us/faq.aspx

 

From the article linked to in the very first post: "The Customs employees discovered 144 silver, bronze and copper coins during a routine check. They were hidden in a car tape recorder that was destined to Spain and shipped by a courier company." Sounds to me as if the looters knew very well what they were doing ...

Christian

 

Indeed, I have read the article. They taking coins across the border - a crime in the eyes of the Bulgarian government. I don't deny that. I don't deny that the government operated completely legally. But I do deny that such actions will have any positive effect on controlling the black market.

 

No, it would merely make them illegal to export across international borders. You can go to Crete or Greece or Italy and legally buy dug artifacts, you just can't leave the country with them.
Guy

 

The state claims all finds in the home countries as well. Which is why, if you see the related thread regarding seizures of coins from an auction in Ireland, Romania was able to claim the coins despite them having already crossed the border.

 

Hmm, are you referring to this topic?
http://www.cointalk.com/t210596/

That article mentions "Koson gold coins dating from the year 42 BC, which were stolen during a public bid in 2011 at an auction house in Dublin". So apparently somebody has stolen stolen coins.

Christian

 

Ha! I didn't catch that they were previously stolen from the Dublin auction house. I would take the claim that they were stolen from Romania with a grain of salt, however. The Romanians have been vigorously pursuing these pieces lately, to the point that a Lanz auction was interrupted in progress to seize some coins of this type.

 

I am not an expert on ancient coins but I seem to recall reading that some of the best quality ancient fakes originated in Bulgaria and were made by expert Bulgarian engravers. I think I read about it in one of Allen Berman's books. Is this true?

 

Yes, the Bulgarians make some good quality fakes.

To Christian, the main problem with these laws, and I don't care if they are under UNESCO or not, is that Bulgaria cannot prove the coins actually came from there. If they can, its a normal theft case resolved through Interpol. However, they claim they own ALL coins ever minted in modern day Bulgaria, which we know is wrong. What if a coin was made in Bulgaria in 286 AD, but in 287 AD were traded to a traveling merchant and he took them to Cologne and spent them there. If the coins are found in Cologne today, Bulgaria still claims they own them. How is that fair? Coins were meant to be traded, and ancient roman coins are found in Sweden, India, China, all over asia, and all over Europe. Why does Bulgaria get to claim them simply because they were minted there 1800 years ago, (by culturally different inhabitants than live there today may I add)? Shouldn't the country where the coins are FOUND control them? How does Bulgaria PROVE the coins in Ireland were FOUND in Bulgaria and not found in Germany?

 

How did Bulgaria become an independent state? Shouldn't it be dissolved by the EU and folded into Greece?