Dansco album toned Clad quarters...Oh my.

That is really a nice haul, Greg! Thanks for sharing them.

Chris

 

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Amazing Coins

 

Very nice! I might have to start a Dansco of this series.

 

Blasphemy!!!

 

You are correct in a way. Although "damage" isn't necessarily the proper term to use in every case.
"Natural toning" is caused due to the outer layer of the coin reacting with air, paper, heat, moisture or other types on environmental characteristics and storage venues.
Toning is very unpredictable and can be damaging or ugly from the time it starts. Especially if it happens too rapidly.

Certainly some people will argue that any form of toning is damage (not the TPG's). However, when the toning produces beautiful colors and patterns, they will give a coin a premium value and are very desirable by toned collectors like myself.
When toning goes bad, and turns black, it is considered terminal. Meaning, at that point the toning has actually eaten away on the planchet and therefore has damaged the coin.

Here are a couple threads I posted with examples of terminally toned coins and the need to dip them.

http://www.cointalk.com/t140858/

http://www.cointalk.com/t205567/

 

I've "toned" quite a few coins in old (30 years) Whitman albums and remain furious with myself for destroying their original mint color.

The general view of conservation (archeologically, historically, etc.) is to never do anything irreversable or further modifying. Removing corrosion is always a debatable task since it risks destroying the underlying surface, but at least it attempts to reduce the continued modification.

But to cause toning for aesthetic effect?! Isn't that like buying a fine piece of furniture and "distressing" it with a hammer, awl, and shoe polish? You can't go back! I view toned coins only slightly above those cleaned in a rock tumbler, and a considerable dis-service to a future generation of coin collectors.

 

Of course we all have the right to our opinion, but to compare beautiful natural toned coins to taking a hammer to a fine piece of furniture is simply off base.
I think you are confusing natural toning with artificial toning. You cannot stop toning from happening. You can certainly try and slow it down by putting it airtite (nothing is actually air tight) containers or slabs, but you will not stop it.

So if you want to compare furniture and the like, collectors of folk art and OLD furniture look for the "distressed" and weathered pieces. Why? Because that means that were not "conserved" or cleaned, and are all natural with original, untouched surfaces. Same goes for naturally toned coins.

 

My coins toned just as these did, from the edges where the coin touches the album toward the center. This is caused by the chemicals in the album papers, cardboards, glues, and inks. However the coins I have stored in Mylar-faced (boPET) cardboard holders since the early 70's are as perfect as when they went in.

Direct contact with acidic papers or other chemically non-stable or incompatible materials (specific to metal/alloy) will obviously alter coins. I can understand that some opinions will believe this is okay or even desirable for aesthetic purposes (thus my distressed furniture comment), but we simply can't ignore that these are molecular changes on the surfaces. I'm just arguing to call it what it is. I doubt there are many numismatists who would view enamaling color on an MS Morgan as preservation. So my original question was to truely ask this community if there was some desirable preseverational aspect of toning that I was missing. It sort of shocks me to read a thread where coin alteration is preferable over preservation!

My goal is to avoid changing my coins as much as possible. For now, I'm using Mylar in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. There may be other stable plastics, but I'm trying to avoid any that off-gas or leach. (Obviously PVC, but maybe PMMA and PC, too.) I suppose it goes without saying, but I also avoid anything with wood, paper, ink or die, glues, whiteout, tape, and cloth, too.

Not trying to stir up dissension here, just truly wondering where others come down on this. I'm new here and haven't bumped into this converation yet. I'll go back and catch up on the thoughts after this!

 

Then the answer is yes. Collectors will pay huge premiums for eye-appealing, naturally toned coins.

http://www.cointalk.com/t135678/

http://www.cointalk.com/t191715/

On a side note, if you ever take a look at PCGS photograde, then look at each type and go to the highest grades (67/68), most of the time you will see a toned coin. :thumb:

Also, when NGC gives a 'star' designation to a coin, it is generally because of toning. These also bring huge premiums.

 

Makes sense if you collect coins for as an investment or for business purposes. I totally understand now. This is purely a market demand driven interest based on the fact that a lot of people like toned coins.

I guess my interest in coins has always been their intrinsic value as interesting historical objects and the odd relationship between their rarity, demand, and condition. For example, it is possible to pay more for a Lincoln's bust than a Caesar! I have a rainbow toned MS-60 Morgan that got that way from sitting in a foam case for about 30 years. Pure damage from my perspective, I'd rather have had it un-toned because that way its properties would be closer to the way it was when it was created.

The problem with artificial aging is that it can't be reversed and it may someday go out of style... like distressed furniture.

 

Tasty!

 

I, like gbroke and many others find most toning extremely attractive. When nature is allowed to take its course, the chemical reaction with the surface of the coin can be spectacular! Living in a warm, humid climate, toning is the rule, rather than the exception. Some of the most magnificent looking coins that I have ever seen have come from the New Orleans mint, as it was obviously an extremely conducive atmosphere for toning to occur. It seems as if the humid states elicit very beautiful toned coins, although I have bought some coins coming from the arid Southwest that are equally spectacular. I am not a chemist, but in speaking to friends who are, it seems as if naturally occurring Sulphur in the water or air (this is common in the South--just walk by a house that has an irrigation well, and one can smell the Sulphur water) makes for brilliant toning. There are other factors as well--natural oxidation, moistening and drying of the coin's surface in whatever holder, as few airtight materials are completely 'airtight," despite advertising. Obviously, contact toning, such as album paper and other colored holders for coins makes for some interesting patterns.

Not all collectors love toning, but those who do will oft times pay extra for that which some folks think of as damage. To me, it isn't damage, unless someone set out to alter or deliberately tone a coin in some unnatural process, such as chemicals added, baking, etc.

 

Mostly small cents, but some silver of other denominations starting about 1860. Some where nearly new when they were preserved by my father, other older ones I have less info on how they were originally collected. Nearly all came from circulation or mint bags and so had some level of degradation when they went in, but I've not noticed visible toning by eye. Certainly under 30x or more power there would be signs of corrosion evident but I wasn't sophisticated enough in those days to document conditions to compare to today. I'm hoping my efforts now will be a better basis for those that inherit it.

Yes, I certainly understand this and did not mean to imply that my (pretty standard) methods halted corrosion. However I do believe reducing direct contact with these corrosives via Mylar and storage in temperature and humidity moderated conditions limits aging as much as is reasonable short of museum archival methods. Certainly much better than the evil cardboard "hole" folders responsible for the original posts toning!

You understood correctly. Cardboard holders with mylar facings prevent coins from having any contact with paper. The mylar is actually a complete sheet wrapped around the coin in final condition with the cardboard wrapping that. With the three exposed edges stapled it is unlikely that any dust can pass through.

Some manufacturers produce low quality holders in which the cardboard dust is everywhere. Anyone who has purchased these know that they are packaged in stacked fashion with the cardboard face of one holder pressed against the mylar face of the next. Not good, I've never understood why they don't reverse every other one for a mylar-mylar condition. In any case, I use from my local dealer (don't even know the brand) that seem to be nearly dust-free but I always lightly wipe the inside off with a clean cotton glove before pocketing the coin. I also use ultra-fine permanent markers or fine ink pens (both by Sharpie) for marking the outsides believing this can't bleed through the mylar. My view is that stamp and printer inks as well as label adhesive are just as risky although less convenient.

Mylar flips of pure mylar avoid paper altogether and in my view might be a bit better, but are too expensive for many thousands of coins. I have been debating whether to shift to these but there is the problem of conveniently marking and storing them. I think sliding a paper into the opposite side degrades the method down to standard cardboard holder and they don't stack well in boxes so I have resisted.

It's possible I'm trying to convince myself that my efforts to date are the best reasonable for preserving my collection, but I honestly don't know what I would change. This has by now drifted a bit off topic of the thread, but I have been trying to avoid toning and damage so fervently that the original post showing "beautiful toning" shocked me off my chair!

 

I'd like to, I've never photographed a coin before though and might spend a few hours testing a setup tonight to test. Can't decide on the milk jug or 45 degree glass approach...

 

Wow! Those are stunningly beautiful!