Is this overgraded?

This 1923 Silver Cert (Fr. 238) looks absolutely perfect except for the waviness on the top of the note. Should it lay perfectly flat to be considered GEM, and Gem 66 at that?


EDIT: Apologies for the photos, they can be viewed below or in this link: http://imgur.com/a/LUIgt

 

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Photos are not working for me, and I don't want to establish a GMail account to see them.

 

Same here

 

Me too!

 

On some notes, a natural "paper wave" is acceptable, and sometimes even desirerable......that's why is has the PPQ designation.

 

Note looks perfectly graded from this angle. It's not wood, it's paper, and when you ink it, paper wave is perfectly natural. Notes that lie perfectly flat are in fact unusual and have often been pressed.

That looks like a winner of a note. Of course, if you think it overgraded, I will make a standing offer of face value to take the offensive note off your hands...

 

HAHA - So Face Value = one silver dollar right? So a Morgan in MS66? - Deal.

Thanks for the input guys, still learning here.

 

Is it true that in the early printing that they used the wet method? The weavey paper is from the process in printing, if I remember right. This was to bring up the printing and give depth to the process.

 

Here is something else to consider, the note may have been certified and holdered with no detectible wave to the paper, however subsequent improper storage in an environment where moisture/humidity was inconsistent or high, may have effected the note long after returning from certification.

From PCGS Currency - Our Holder: "Our specially designed grading label and partial open-top holder allow notes to "breathe," thus preventing the paper from deteriorating due to lack of oxygen."

While the note may be allowed to "breath", so too can improper storage allow for the introduction of moisture absorbed by the paper from the surrounding environment. This may be a much more likely factor.

I don't think the note 'was' over graded but if it were sent in again it may not return with the same grade if that wave is present and the next grader finds it unappealing or distracting.


Typically, in traditional intaglio printing processes, paper must be dampened prior to printing. The same was the case up to the early 1950s when the B.E.P. developed new inks for dry-printing. Since about 1952 paper no longer needed to be dampened before printing. This had the effect of increasing production time.


Hydrostatic Presses at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing
Briefly examines the first attempt at "dry" printing at the BEP.

 

MEC has it right.

 

Hold on just a minute there guys... Notes that lie perfectly flat are not in the least bit unusual. Nor is it the ink that causes paper to ripple. It is entirely due to paper which has been dampened for the printing process, or improperly controlled moisture and/or pressure during printing and subsequent drying stages, or paper that has been exposed to moisture later in the notes life.

Notes that escape circulation and remain in collectors care, when compared to overall printage throughout currency history, are what are unusual. Notes like the one from the era of the OPs example and before it are rarer still for surviving unblemmished and problem free for so long.

In fact, "when you think about it", all notes are pressed. All intaglio and litho printed notes go through tremendous pressure of the printing press. Gem notes are the combination of printing and material controlls. Notes come out on crisp sheets, which in the past were cut down by hand. And anymore, for many many years already, notes are machine cut in large stacks, bound and packaged to make their way into circulation, some being plucked for collections in GEM state.

The intaglio printing process, when properly controlled will not produce prints with such wavy after effects, even though paper is want to absorb moisture and ripple. This is even more true of the BEP and their ever sophisticated approach to controlling and perfecting the traditional printing technique. Quality controlled and inspected notes do not typically emerge in this state (despite the occassionally missed "error" note displaying crushed wrinkles amongst other printing and QC faux pas that collectors pay a premium for.)

The OP's note would not have been trimmed from a sheet which displayed this wavy appearance overall. If the entire original sheet were like that, the edges would not be easy to but so square as we see them to be on this note. Again, the problem is more likely due to what I cited above, improper storage in a humid environment and a holder that is not sealed which can and did absorb moisture, since being certified and holdered.

Further, if we could inspect the embossing of the note, we could check it's quality and the paper surface for being original and not tampered with re-pressing which would alter the surface and usually crushes some if not all of the raised ink lines printed on the note.

Of course some unscrupulous people or dealers have re-pressed some notes in the hope of improving their notes appeal, potentially decieving buyers of such notes and perhaps attempting to profit from this action and deception. When you think about the sheer numbers of paper currency out there over the last century alone, there's no way any one had access to nor time and ability enough to effectively press all those perfectly GEM notes that you posit to be suspect.

 

"Natural paper wave" is quite desirable. http://www.ha.com/common/search_results.php?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&N=0+790+231&Ntt=Natural%20paper%20wave&Ns=Time%7C1 - here are over 3000 lots on Heritage where it is referenced to describe the note. It is a good thing, and the note is properly graded.

 

"quite desirable" is your own subjective addition to Heritage's marketing phrase, "Natural paper wave" that they use to attempt to sell notes that display a common effect of moisture or humidity on paper. It is something that not every collector will bid for when they see it. Yes, the grade of the OPs note seems acceptable to this thread as we keep agreeing on that point, so further stating that, after you agreed with someone previously isn't underscoring your point in the least.

Notice also that the majority of those notes are in PCGS holders or are not encapsulated in a holder. And nearly 400 out of the 3,000 auctions you turned up in your search results did not sell. Similarly, the price ranges for notes with "Natural Paper Wave" is heavily weighted in a third of them having sold for $100 or less.

Sold For:

$1 - $100 (1,254)

$101 - $1000 (1,620)

$1,001 - $10,000 (215)

$10,001 - $100,000 (11)

$100,001 > (1)

Archive Status
Archive: Not Sold (381)

 

Right, Krispy, I am sure Heritage mentions "natural paper wave" because it is a negative to most collectors. And you conveniently ignore the 11 notes that sold collectively for almost a quarter million dollars. I'm sure you've got it right over the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world Krispy. Lol. Whatever.

 

Take off the rose-tinted glasses and learn how to count... The 11 notes you cite were not sold for anywhere near, "half a million dollars". That's $500,000 in case you can't visualize numbers. Those notes sold in the range of $10,001 to $100,000. A far cry in value from half a million and if you look at those notes, you will see that their rarity and/or rarity for their grades, has a lot more to do with the prices achieved than the 'desirability' of "natural paper wave".

Yes, I can see through HA's marketing speak. Heritage employs it to sell notes. Please show me a hobby grading standard that includes the term "natural paper wave" and which speaks about it as favorably as does a Heritage item description. It's not something HA works into auction titles. We don't see that term used as a key word by collectors seeking it out. Even the OP of this thread thought it may negatively impact the grade and as well, possibly, the value of his note.

Try again vibr0nic...

I didn't conveniently leave out notes

 

250k - 500k is a distinction without a difference. The point, still valid, is that original paper quality in most cases includes the natural paper wave present on notes printed in that era. Especially on large size notes, the wave is a sign of original and unpressed/unaltered paper body.

Nobody buys a car because it has a "new car smell", new car smell isn't a search term at the dealer's web site, but if you get in a card that DOESN'T have it, it's a sign that something is amiss. But you bet the salesman will mention it during the test drive - it helps you know the car is in NEW condition. It's the same functional argument being made about paper wave present in the body of older high grade currency.

Try not being a jerk about it too...

 

"250k - 500k is a distinction without a difference."

It's a difference alright, one that doesn't exist in the examples provided, let alone impact much of the discussion on paper. Of course, as I've said, wave is a natural effect on paper, not just of past eras but of all eras. As I said much earlier, improper storage over the life time of a note can lead to increased paper wave, and a 'breathable' holder like those PCGS uses, increase the risk if the owner doesn't store the note in a consistent or controlled climate. It's entirely plausible that some notes develop such wave after being encapsulated in a PCGS holder due to the owners storage conditions. It doesn't, as I have iterated before, affect the grade and we all seem to agree on the grade given to the OPs note.

Thanks for the example of new car smell, as you've demonstrated very well that it is employed as a sales tactic by sales people, which is comparable to HA suggesting "natural paper wave" is a selling point in a listing.
​

BTW: correcting inaccurate statements is not being a jerk, so don't be a sore looser if it happens to you.
​

 

I corrected my post moments after.... 10 minutes before your reply actually.

You're still wrong. Paper wave is desirable. Heritage knows it. But you know better, right? Pfft.

 

"Desirable" to you maybe. Desirable to those collecting on a shoestring budget that allow such problems into their collections maybe. If that's your thing, go right ahead and buy the car with the new smell, those plastics and fabrics gassing off are nice and toxic for your health.

The OP of this thread doubted the grade of the note with such 'natural paper wave', doubtful grades then effect values, a third of those sales you quoted from Heritage sold for pocket change, $100 or less. Most collectors seeking Gem certified notes will pass on them, and as I point out, in a PCGS holder it is a sign of improper storage by a previous owner due to breathable holders.


You still don't seem to understand numbers. Correcting your post didn't help, a "quarter million" is $250,000 and there were no search results for notes above $100,000 from the link you provided, see the numbers I quoted from your HA link above. In fact, the top price on a note was $26,450 for a single note. Other top prices were for straps or numerous consecutive notes, raw or encapsulated, all reducing the overall price per note. What maintains the high value for those notes was rarity, not natural paper wave desirability.


You have not disproved a thing I have stated about paper wave, nor its causes and effects on value. You are new here with few posts to show your crediblitly and understanding about what you are attempting to defend or refute. As I said before, try again... :thumb:

 

Your large post count only tells me you have lots of free time - not that you know wtf you are talking about.

From this thread alone, it's pretty clear who has credibility. In my corner - Heritage, the world's largest collectibles auctioneer, and PCGS, arguably the most respected currency TPG. In your corner - uh, you.

Funny, I can tell from your last comment that you still don't even understand why this note possesses natural paper wave. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. Sorry.