remove you CAC sticker Month

Ah - Finally someone is paying attention

 

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I've been stating my position on this since your other thread, the one that was locked recently.

 

Why? Buyers are clearly willing to pay stronger amounts to reduce that uncertainty. There is no law anywhere nor reason for your assertion.

Who is saying any grading opinion is 100% accurate? I even said exactly the opposite in my post you quoted. Exactly the opposite. I said explicitly that uncertainty will always exist.

If people didn't think that CAC's opinion was a useful second opinion and that their agree/disagree judgement usually resulted in an expected separation in quality, then no one would care about them.

There is always uncertainty, about a TPG grade and about a CAC opinion. Does CAC provide a service people in general find useful? Yes.

 

Only because it supports the lopsided theory that a CAC sticker on a top tier grading service slab will support higher asking prices.

This is much akin to the 70 labels. That's started to die out, and the infatuation with a green bean on a slab from an service providing a paid opinion, will also die out.

 

As long as a CAC sticker is a generally reliable indicator of better quality within a grade level, people will continue to find it useful. That usefulness might result in one coin being purchased while another is not, or it may result in someone willing to stretch their auction bid just a little more because they feel more confident about the quality of the coin. That's up to the buyer and the market.

 

This is what I have been saying all along too...you are making my point. When a coin is sent to a TPG you are paying for those experts to evaluate the coin and give an opinion. CAC is a group of experts...completely independent of the first group...who looks at and evaluates the coin and then gives their opinion as to the accuracy of the original grade. It's a professional second opinion. It's having a second set of expert eyes' evaluate the coin and that is the service they charge for.

 

That is not what you asked me to do...you said:

You wanted a CAC coin graded MS63...not a coin graded MS63 by CAC. So, I found coins that had been graded MS63 that CAC had agreed with. Those are CAC coins graded MS63. I gave you several examples of exactly what you asked for.

 

That is not true. Your unfamiliar with investment markets.

What? How did you jump to that? The discussion is about market dynamics and fraudulent business practices in a market. That has no relationship at all to your comment. You seem to keep repeating this as if it somehow changes the facts. It really doesn't. If people find a fraudulent business practice "useful" that is even more the reason to regulate it. If they didn't, then who would care. It would then cause a market bubble and eventual collapse. Anthing that cause merchandise or widgits to raise in price (or go lower in price) other than widgets inherent "natural" value is a market distortion and market distortions designed to benefit a few at the over all cost to the market is defined as fraud. This is basic business law and market economic. When I went the the NYUSCPS for art auctions and marketing, this was covered toughly. That is why there is advertising regulations review of marketing material of stocks and bonds under the SEC and strict rules within auction hosues to prevent such charges from being brought against them.

No, actually. That is why it is not permitted in serious investment markets. EVERYTHING is sold by prospectus.

That is my only 2 cents worth in this thread.

Amanda

 

Um... Yes, actually.

I am so confused that it seems like 2 or 3 members want to argue that collectors don't find a CAC sticker useful. Not all members, maybe not even most, but many people want the second opinion on a coin that they are going to purchase with only having seen pictures. As long as sales happen over the internet there are people that will want the added security of a second opinion.


Side note, still waiting for mrbrklyn to show a coin that he removed a CAC sticker from...

 

I can't say it much clearer than i did. You just skipped over what I said and formed your own conclusion.

That is an EXCELLENT point

 

Oh GOD Rick... your killing me... gasp gasp gasp .... gurgle chhhhaaaah


dead...

 

In this thread? I reread and the closest I could find was this-

In baseball cards the main grading companies grade cards from 1-10, however one company has decided to go back and now offer half points. If a card earns a 7 (as an example) you can resubmit it and they might regrade that card to a 7.5. The major differences in this example is that the regrade is the same company and the card will be reslabbed with a new grade.

I see CAC as doing the same thing but without needing to reslab the coin. They are not the original company but they are regrading the coin. A coin is brought in that has graded MS 63, if they feel the coin deserves a 63 or lower they do nothing, if they think it deserves a "63.5" or higher then they give it a sticker. Even if they don't put a new number on the slab itself it is understood by most collectors that the coin is considered to be better then the average coin graded MS 63.

 

It's an opinion of another opinion. Nothing more. Not reliable at all.

 

Because it's very cut and dry with CAC.

If CAC agrees the grade opinion is correct, or "the coin is strong for the grade" as they state on their site, it gets a sticker.

If CAC disagrees, the coin is returned with no sticker.

 

Um... the coin market is neither an investment market, nor is it regulated. There is no law against what the TPGs or CAC do - and they never say anything about the price or value of the coin, simply the state of conservation. The discussion is most certainly NOT about "fraudulent activities" because there is no fraud happening. Everything is well-explained with no assertion of price or value. There is no fraud, and neither you nor anyone else has even tried to explain how there possibly could be. Your "definition" of fraud is a fraud itself. Besides the fact that coins are not anything at all remotely similar to federally-regulated stocks, what you described would also include things like advertising, product placement, endorsements, and so on.

I've never seen a coin prospectus, have you?

There is nothing fraudulent in what the TPGs or CAC do, and it's a very strange joke to be asserting there is, especially comparing the situation to federally-regulated investments. Those investments have income and costs and published future estimations that determine the price. Coins do not, and neither the TPGs nor CAC say ANYTHING about price. That's entirely left up to the market.

And yet the market (i.e. buyers) finds it quite useful and reasonably reliable. John Albanese is not just some random Joe.

Exactly. However, "strong for the grade" translates into MS63.4-MS63.9, since they separate into A, B, C.

 

Which is nothing more than marketing fluff. It's micochewing the grade even finer than the TPGs do, purely for marketing and increasing prices more than the coin is worth.

Nothing more.

 

Good points made here, as I have heard a number of coin dealers say it may be "against the law". So it isn't. Is is ethical? Well over a billion in coins run through CAC and a quarter of that purchased directly, huge advantage when you have the type of marketing connections they have. And they have changed their criteria from time to time on whether or not they will certify AT'd gold coins:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "When CAC first started, John was CACing some altered surface gold but when informed about it went on to correct it."
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But TPGs do acknowledge those finer grading levels. What are "+" designations by TPGs, then? The added marketing is a service for the seller, and any increased price is up to the buyer. To quote NGC:

 

I disagree. To me it means little if:

• I can determine if the grade is correct myself based on my knowledge of the particular series
• I have no intentions of selling the coin

However, if I was buying a coin in a particular series for the first time, a CAC sticker on the slab might be a tad bit of reassurance to my cause.

I would never go out of my way to pay more for a CAC coin, but I can see how one can deem it to be useful.

I think grading is subjective but I find PCGS and CAC to be somewhat reliable in a field with such a vast array of differing opinions.