Teletrade is still using hidden reserves!

And it also seems like they are not hidden, at least up until the last 48 hours. Remember, you made the statement:

"There's only 2 things it can mean that I know of - 1 - bidders are not aware there is even is a reserve, and 2 - bidders may know there is a reserve, but do not get to see what the reserve price actually is until it has been met."

Yet there is a third, ala DLRC, and now you know.

You are confusing phantom bids and house bids and/or I was unclear. They are two related yet different things (at least in my little head, lol). You describe house bids. What Teleletrade is automatically bid coins up to a reserve via an automated program, again and again, without any bidding taking place by anyone -- right up to the reserve so that anyone who places a bid now owns the coin. That's quite different from what happens at other auction houses, and add to that the amount of house owned coins (see comments below) and perhaps it makes more sense why I describe Teletrade a retail sales outlet cleverly disguised as an auction house.

That is not what I understand. I've heard (second hand) that in many TT auctions than more than half of the auction lots at TT are house owned, which is far and away higher than any other auction house.

And to the best of my knowledge, eBay does not auction their own material, so now you know one.

Sneaky is how I describe the behavior I see. Something not being disclosed would be illegal or unethical, and you're right, they disclose this behavior. They are above board with their sneakiness, and that's a difference that perhaps I didn't describe well enough.

For example, I could tell you that I may intentionally lie to you, but when I do that doesn't make it right. It's still a lie, a deception.

And that's what the auction houses do, by my estimation -- deceive to make a profit for themselves and their consignors.

And no matter of education or accreditation or historical precedence will change how I feel about that.

Bottom line: Disclosure is sufficient to be legal, but being legal hardly makes something right. I was raised to a higher standard of conduct, and while Frank may believe that is a "weak argument", I try very hard to live up to those lessons -- doing what I see as honest, up-front, and right -- and they have served me very well over the years.

Detecto, perhaps. However, it would be a mistake to call me ignorant on what is in these bidder agreements. I've read them all, participated in most, and I stand by my assessment.

 

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There are plenty of accredited, educated, law abiding used car salesman too, and I don't look fondly on that profession either.

Sorry if you feel like the baby thrown out with the bathwater, but I do not condone the behavior of those who need to deceive to sell.

From your posts over the years, Frank, you seem like a good guy. So please don't take my displeasure with your industry as a personal affront, it's just how I feel.

Take care...Mike

 

coins just do not seem as good-

 

My 2c. I bought exactly one coin on HA which was a file photo piece (can be seen in a previous thread). The one I got was a spotted mess (on a late proof). I'm done with those clowns. TT has great pictures and ships relatively fast. No complaints from me except for sometimes the holders are scratched but headlight restorer works well.

 

Interesting thread. Never been a winner on one where the auction went unsold. Always in the past I would place a bid and forget it - I ended up(and still do) losing most of them. I personally like Heritage better - while not perfect they seem to be better than tt - in my opinion only. I do think a couple of times the automatic bidder got me to my maximum(seemed oh so slowly) - then it bid again and I lost. I don't have a problem with tt - but I look at it as having to bid retail. At least on the things I collect.

On a side note I had a consignment with Heritage and signed all the sellers agreement. There were a few scary things it it, but nothing I could not live with. The only thing in the agreement I did not like was - they get to decide what is the right auction environment. So I thought all of my coins were going into the long beach sale - nope. 55 went to long beach and about 22 went to the Sunday - Tuesday auctions. At first this bugged me a little - but then I looked closer and the 22 coins make maybe 10% of the total cost. These 22 are very common date items or lower grade items. At this point after the long beach sale I am more than pleased with the results so far - will have to see at settlement time. There are conditions in the agreement around settlement. PS - In order to set a reserve I needed to let Heritage know 14 days in advance of the auction and in writing.

I can also tell you at no time did I know who bid or what the max bids were. The only thing I could see are the current bids. I have never consigned to teletrade so I do not know if the process as easy as it was with Heritage. I had someone assigned to me to work with - and yes I did ask a few silly questions at the start. The gentleman was very patient with me and very friendly. The only thing I would do different next time is to ask them to tell me which auction they think the coins would go into. Just so I knew up front.

 

The solution is very simple.:yes: You don't like TT don't go back. I don't think it could get any easier than that.

 

I feel like quoting a whole bunch of posts in this thread but I won't I'll try to keep this simple.

You guys who have been coin collecting all your life, obviously know a lot of things there are to know. You probably strive to know more.

I'd like to think that I have a wide variety of life experiences, Likely to be enough for several normal peoples lives.

I need someone to tell me what EXACTLY happened to cause those lots I bid on to not be sold. You can't (at least not based on my best researching capabilities) and that is my point. I would like to know what happened. Shouldn't this be a common courtesy to any customer? Apparently by the tone of some the posts in this this thread, it is not, nor should it be expected, because this is how it is, and how it will always be, since is this what everybody else does.

NEWSFLASH! wake up coin collectors. The rest of the world is not like this. They are mostly open for change. They find ways to improve. They strive to do better. They know there is room for improvement.

I really don't care about all the various functions that consignors or the auction house have at their disposal. Why should I? I am a bidder, I decide if I want to bid or not, what else do I really need to know? Well it sure is helpful to know that they will not combine ship. What? I buy a bunch of little trinkets over a week at several auctions and they can't put them all in one box? Really? I digress, sorry. I have and do read terms. It's more about what is not in the terms in plain English.


So, back to the subject at hand. Someone tell me why those coins did not sell. Someone tell me (politely) why teletrade doesn't inform their customer of what happened automatically. Here are the sequence of events.

I log onto Teletrade.
click on want list.
view items.
research previous buys of same coin (I have 6 others at same grade)
Fireup Terapeak to research eBay -
Didn't bother with HA since I have 2 of the same coin from them
I ignore skim TT past results.
note: I am only focused on one particular coin.
I enter my max bids.
3 days later - I get email regarding items closing that day.
I check amounts, research a little more decide they are OK
Time spent May 31st related to TT bids - roughly 1 hour

OK = almost exactly 24 hours later I check closed results.
Lots did not sell. What?
I go back to Teletrade search http://www.teletrade.com/coins/help/howtobuy.asp

Where else am I supposed to look? I know! Make a thread on CT.

Cool! Right away I see terms like Hidden Reserve, Buy Back in subsequent posts.

Me and google are best buddies. I ask an exact question and I get exact answers,

I type into google: Teletrade Hidden Reserve cause that must be what happened?

Top Result: http://www.teletrade.com/coins/blog.asp

I start reading..... nope nothing in there that fits.

I come back here. Now Doug in his typical fashion of posting about supposed facts with never actually backing up these purported facts, is making me feel really small. Ok, I am dumb, I am a noob coin collector. I accept that I don't know one tenth of one percent about the ins and outs of coin collecting.. Ok let me go learn, I'm smart.. well at least Mensa 1978 said so..

OK - let me go look into what sellers do at Teletrade... http://www.teletrade.com/coins/help/how2sell.asp

hmmmmmm looks pretty basic. I see the buyback thingy, well that must be what happened? I honestly don't know. BUT now I think.. wait.. The seller wants to buy his coin back, how can he do that, he doesn't know what the highest bid is, does he? (now I find out that they don't, thank you for that info whoever you were)

Let me understand this.

So I place a max bid of $180
The seller/consignor places a bid (any amount) into the same web page as I do?
Teletrade recognizes the consignors buy back and the auction is closed?
In the eyes of Teletrade since the seller is buying back his own consignment the item did not actually sell even though a dollar amount was enter under the premise of a buy back?

Am I understanding this correctly?




Sorry, I thought I could keep it simple, but hey! in the spirit of Teletrade.. Lets complicate things

 

This is the simple version.

Riddle me this: When can you buy something and it not be sold?

 

Could you help me? It's apparently not a big deal. I must be uneducated, I am sorry. What was it I was supposed to know before I put bids in?

Please be specific and provide information from the Teletrade Internet Auction Site, to my question of: Why did this coin not sell? Thanks a ton!

 

Live Bidding hasn't opened but bids can most certainly be placed and are encouraged by Teletrade, they can't be retracted, they are binding etc etc.

 

That makes sense. Now why they don't simply add 4 words to This lot was not sold when the consignor buys his coin back doesn't make sense. Everyone has experienced sellers remorse. That is perfectly understandable.

This lot was not sold due to consignor buyback.



​

 

EEW: Sorry you did not win the coin. You have every right to feel frustrated about the process. I know you like to resolve things by letter, but my suggestion is to call Teletrade directly (ask to speak to Irma Kane). I am sure she will respond to your question and hopefully solve the riddle Please post her answer here, as many on CT are interested. TC

 

It is very important to note that Consignor Buy Back, Auction Starting Amount, and Reserves are all interchangeable descriptive terms/phrases.

As for the OP's original question as to why they did not sell. That can ONLY be answered by having actually viewed the auction 30 minutes before it closed to see where the bidding was.

I fully expect that the consignor placed a "buy back/reserve/starting point" at well above $180 for the two 1909's ($280 coins) and well above $200 for the 1909 DDO since that could be a $1,000 coin.

 

Agree call them up, be polite, ask them what happened, get them to explain the process. Just be polite and I am sure you will get answers - they may not be what you like, but I am sure they will answer the question. That is exactly what I did when I sold on heritage.

 

I don't consider eBay to be an auction house as they never have control over any of the lots, never have them in their possession, and do not write the descriptions or handle the shipping.

 

More a 'venue' than a 'house'.........

 

I would think there are a few reasons for not telling anyone when the seller buys his coin back. The bottom line is, it's their business and I don't think they're breaking any laws. Sure it's frustrating but it's certainly not worth losing sleep over. Better luck next time. Oh and if it happens to you again, I suggest you break your rule of writing letters and give them a call. :thumb:
​

 

Some more reasons why I don't call for verbal answers to my question of "why did this coin not sell".

Any Dupont people here? Remember their 6x8 notepads that had the heading, Don't say it, Write it? That is the school I from and have returned to.... after a decade of living on a cell phone.

I am sure that they think that they know what they are doing, they all know after all, that they are the largest certified coin auctioneer. Why in heavens earth would I go into a philosophical discussion/argument (being the noob I am) with trained and experienced experts?

So therefore, I simply took their words in their most recent press releases regarding transparent bidding and no hidden reserves, along with the specific sequence of events and presented my question of "why did this coin not sell" to an organization that my taxes help pay for. That is what they are there for. In this case, Better Business Bureau, I think it best for everyone involved to have the experts who deal with Better Business practices, deal with the experts at this auction house.

Look all, one thing I have noticed that is prevalent with in the coin collecting community is that if no one complains, nothing will change. I am of the opinion, that the idea of: That is the way it is and the way it has been and is the way it will be and I should accept it with out explanation is the way of the ..........


I don't think I am asking for anything unusual or unreasonable. Do I think I can change the way Teletrade conducts their auctions? Well I don't know, but I do know that if no one tries then nothing will change. So why not?


As stated, my first experience with TT, after taking a break from coins has been disappointing, frankly more of the same. Especially disappointing, when I notice that in one year, browser problems auto sizing images has moved from desktop to cell phone! lol.. Why does coin collecting take so long to adapt to new and better things, things like simple customer service? I have my ideas. :hail:


Anyways, the details have been posted. Here is a summary of what I would like to see happen.

Complaint Summary

Inaccurate Closed Auction Results. Item not Sold is not true. Use of Hidden Reserves or Consignor buying coins back without stating so.


Resolution Sought

Document actual auction results and or Bidding history. I want them to live up to what they advertise regarding transparency: " Teletrade has also made several changes to the bidding structure, most notably, No Hidden Reserves -all bidding will now open at the opening bid or one bid increment below the reserve to increase bidding transparency." Make public disclosure in the bidding rules that sellers have the option to remove their listing by buying back item. Notify bidders of seller buyback

 

Thank you for that additional information! First time I have heard this. Is that written anywhere on the Teletrade site?

What might I have seen at 30 minutes prior to the close if the seller did one of those interchangeable things?

What you are saying is that the seller can place this reserve buy back thingy up to one hour before the auction opens?

Why would the seller buy his coin back for anything more than a dollar? TT charges $5 for the buyback. The seller can't see the maximum bids so are you saying that seller can also make his buy back a reserve? Why wouldn't bidders be notified and given the opportunity to rethink their max amounts, would that be good for everyone?

FWIW Would you be surprised if I said I owned 4% of that $280 coin? Only one was more than that and it was from Angel Dees, do I need say more? The lowest paid $175 from HA - all purchases made within the last 18 months. Granted my max bid was a low ball offer, but in my experience of TT images, I saw nothing special about these coins and with 8 examples why offer more than I have paid in the past? the DDO, well yeah ok, on the other hand, you never know and it wasn't really a coin that I wanted, but would have certainly taken it at my offer.

 

This was suggested in my post #7. Apparently, the bids were placed on 5-31-12 which was 3 days before the auction. The morning of the live auction is apparently when the starting bids are posted by Teletrade. I suspect the starting bids for these lots were just higher than the OP's previously placed max bids.

If someone really cares about this, I agree they should call or Email Teletrade & politely ask what happened. Teletrade's phone number is listed in post #7.