NGC or PCGS: The Ultimate Poll

I have news for you, the auction prices realized before the TPG's would be useless anyway. The TPG's have been around for 25 years, I wouldn't call that a short time. Why do keep referencing the centuries of coin collecting? It doesn't bolster your point, it makes you sound crazy.

Hyperbole (3 seconds) aside, I would trust my own opinion on a high grade Jefferson since I have an unlimited amount of time to study the coin. With regards to any other series, over the long run, the professional grader would be more accurate and consistent in their grading than I would. And that includes the other series that I have collected seriously over the years. I would get some right that they got wrong, and we would agree a lot. But I would blow it, far more often than they would. Of that, I have no doubt. Don't misunderstand, I have confidence in my grading skills, but I also recognize my limitations and weaknesses. One of the biggest mistakes I see coin collectors make is to overestimate their own grading abilities.

The standards have not changed as much as you think over the years. If you would like to join that discussion in the appropriate thread, be my guest. Here is the link.

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t206389/#ixzz1vXPV6HDa

We are free to do as we please. But make no mistake, it is much easier to grade coins as you please when there are no financial implications. FWIW, I don't think it is a coincidence that the two people (you and Doug) that believe the most in the old ANA grading standards face no financial impact. Doug doesn't own any coins and you are never going to sell. The rest of us are forced to live in a world that includes financial prudence.

 

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Gee, I wonder how TPGers even started since there were no TPGers to submit to. How in the world did anyone know how to grade and authenticate?

 

It was the "wild west" according to some

I can remember a time when BU, CU, and GU were what we went by. We didn't need to micro-grade anything and certainly not chew even finer than a micro-grade.

FYI, BU, should be a given, Brilliant Uncirculated, CU Choice Uncirculated, and GU Gem Uncirculated.

PU, or Perfect Uncirculated, was non-existent since no one could, and can't today, tell the difference between a PU and a GU, or 69 and 70.

 

Yupp, and they can be completely wrong, consistently. Nobody said that longevity in collecting equals accurate grading. Maybe you are a fantastic grader, and maybe you aren't. Holding a zillion coins in your hand doesn't make for expertise in grading--all it does is give you a sense of your own infallibility. You could look at 800,000 coins, and grade 80% of them incorrectly--not intimating that you have done so, but just longevity and frequency of holding a coin don't equal proficiency in grading. Nor does it give you objectivity, necessarily.

 

I would say maybe its more a function that we both moved out of US coins for an extended period and look back at the US market now and find it hard to believe. That may be more of a common denominator, (either that or we just are both hard headed lol).

I guess my main defense would be I think I have shown my ability on this board to grade from photos fairly accurately what the TPG will grade a coin today. If anyone were keeping score I think I am about as close as any really. I just severely disagree with the grade plus and minus on many coins today. That's ok, when I do occasionally buy a US coin I simply buy those I believe the TPG is doing a disservice to, or (gasp) buy a raw coin I know is good.

If you are trying to convince me to get on high wires, and play the "mine is bigger than yours" game that is registry sets and the like, no thanks. I do not need anyone else's approval. I brought my big boy britches, so can judge my own collection by myself.

Hey, to each his own. Like I have said, I like the fact bad coins aren't slabbed, and there is authentication, those are nice aspects of slabs for beginners. To that end I commend TPGing. I simply disagree to the extent the grading has gone, but its not my money. Do I recommend a new collector to collect like me? Heck no, you better get some experience under your belt first, but then jump on in to non-slabbed waters, the water is fine and no one here to judge you.

Chris

 

Rather arbitrarily. Uncirculated covers a lot of territory. Is the coin a borderline "uncirculated," or is it a mid level, or a "gem?" Kind of guesswork, and a lot of fudging,as I remember.

 

But that's what the graders at the TPGs do, all day, everyday, is look at coins in hand and form an opinion of the grade. So if that doesn't make for expertise and lends a sense of infallibility, then your statement supports the TPGs as not being what you're wanting everyone here to accept them to be, accurate and expert.

BTW, you still haven't offered an answer to my question of how you think some of those "experts" became graders?

 

Please don't insult my field. First of all, it is completely off topic. Second of all, most people would prefer to keep their teeth if given the option. While it is true that a root canal, build up, and crown is far more expensive than an extraction...you can still have something to chew with.

 

WHo died and made you King? I didn't answer your question? lol Ok, I will make you happy--they were numismatic experts who were willing to work within a set of rubrics for grading based on TPG established standards--they followed specific guidelines.

 

I am not insulting your profession at all, and if you took that way I apologize as it was not intended to be taken as such.

 

Numismatic experts.

Sounds like former collectors and/or dealers to me, which BTW I believe many of them were at one time :thumb:

 

It was my fault. I never meant to disparage your field, I was just grasping for an analogy of how someone may not have the intentions you think. It had nothing to do with your field whatsoever, it was a completely arbitrary analogy.

Sorry man.

 

You're analogy was fine. It would be just like comparing TPGs to pilots by saying you would prefer to ride on an airplane with a licensed pilot at the controls rather than someone who merely likes planes. There is nothing wrong with that or your analogy. Others simply took it a bit too far and basically said all dentists are crooks.

 

I did not say dentists, all or less than all, are crooks.

 

You are nicer than I am Doug, but I agree with your general point.

Morgandude, if a person can blindly, (without looking at the slab grade), grade a coin in hand as repeatably as a TPG can, why do you have to say they have to submit coins to prove it? Remember, most TPG graders cannot 100% grade coins the same grades as their service gave, they are like 90% repeatable last I saw. You go to some large shows, be able to grade 90% of the time like they do the grade assigned, you are as good as the TPGer. Simple as that.

Yes, there are people who can look at coins all day long and never understand the grade assigned. They will never be able to do it. Just because there are people like that, does not mean there are not people on this board, (some very successful dealers here as well), who cannot. I liken it to if I read a book on something say Byzantine anonymous bronzes. Do I have to take a test to prove I can identify types A through M, or am I capable of it without someone giving me a test?

 

I happen to agree with Mr. Bowers on that.

 

They are only 90% repeatable because of the inherent subjectivity in grading. Have you never looked at a coin an thought, I could grade that either MS64 or MS65 and consider either grade correct? There is a gray are between grades they basically makes them indistinguishable to each other. Is this concept lost on you? The difference between an MS64.9 and MS65.1 is not as easily discernable as that between an MS64.5 and MS65.5. Correct?

BTW, I see you gave Doug's post above yours a "like". That surprises me! Do you agree that TPG's are without a doubt the best thing that has happened to the hobbby? Everything you have ever posted on this forum seems contrary to that opinion. Secondly, do you agree that 95% of collectors DO NOT know how to grade coins correctly? If the answer is yes, I find your constant bashing of the TPG's to be extremely reckless considering that a great many members of this forum would have to fall into that group.

 

Doug, I agree with two of your three points, and am not suggesting that you don't know what you are talking about. I was listening to what you said regarding submission--I HEARD it, but I just don't agree. We have a divergence of opinion on that, and I feel that it centers around point #2 on your list. I DO NOT agree that standards have changed radically, based on similar years of experience to yours. I feel that TPGs still get 85-90% of the grades right, with occasional errors of both over and under grading. They've also made some blown calls in terms of Artificial Toning, and I acknowledge that. However, I do not feel that standards have loosened up to any great significance.

On points 1 and 3, we are in complete agreement.

 

Which is exactly what Doug stated in point 2.