NGC or PCGS: The Ultimate Poll

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The reason we argue is because we disagree on a great many things related to numismatics. It is not because I don't listen. And for you to suggest otherwise is just ridiculous.

 

We can agree to disagree on this. Your opinion and mine conflict.

As far as the "wild west" analogy, back in the day before TPGs, things were much simpler than they are today. Seller and buyer would debate the coin in question, but eventually would find common ground both would be satisfied with.

The only thing TPGs have done, is muddied the waters. They have, and still do today, market themselves as an essential aspect of numismatics, and too many people, dealers and collectors both, rely on the paid opinion from the TPGs, who do not even follow a uniform set of standards.

Now, there's CAC on the scene. Charging money to a limited number of members for what? Verifying the grade on the TPGs label? It seems to me that if the owner of a slabbed coin has doubts of what the TPG has placed on the label, that would make the TPG's services unreliable if their grading now needs a verification from a 4th party.

If CAC doesn't place a "green bean" on the slab does that mean the owner of the slabbed coin can get a free re-grade? I highly doubt it.

It's nothing more than marketing, over-pricing justification, and; quite frankly, un-needed fluff.

People are entitled to throw their money away as they choose, and others are entitled to be more thrifty in their spending.

To each his own.

 

+1

 

100% I AGREED with You..A waste of MONEY all of them.. JUST BUY the COIN not the TPG Holder specially the PRoof 70 or MS 70 is so much money on them when they sell it compare to MS69 or Proof 69. In the long run after a couple more years or One Decade check your MS70 or Proof 70 the surface of the coin is not the same when they slabbed it.

Here is some examples:

 

Another Proof 70Dcam

 

The Truth Will Prevail Eventually!!

I trust you'll pardon my worthless "two cents" interjection.

I believe I've read the majority of the seemingly ad infinitum or ad nauseum unqualitative or unquantitative statements concerning the subject of this thread. I've tried to digest the content objectively, and find myself agreeing with many of the positions advanced by opposing parties/posts. I personally believe that grading organizations all have their areas of expertise/deficiencies.

I believe that anyone having reasonable objective knowledge pertaining to collecting knows the truth about suspected self-serving entities affiliated with the associated organizations seemingly guiding collecting/investing activities. I believe that reasonable evaluation will establish that these affiliated entities have disregarded their standards, and the published standards of the associated organizations.

There has been involvement/action by Federal personnel, who I believe knew that without class support or plaintiffs in actions, unqualitative or unquantitative information would result in the limited resulting agreement. The suspected offending entities who've touted unequaled standards for establishment of collectibles value, have "Price Guides" and limited guarantees that's believed to influence investors. A suspected offending entity representative stated it "would have fought the complaint in court ``had the FTC asked us to pay (customer-redress fines)." I believe both the government and the suspected offending entity knew that it is difficult to establish acceptable fines until real customer damages are established.

I have presented offending "exceptions" to published "grading standards", and cited the appropriate standard, in several of the discussion threads. The intent was to establish the TPG grading truths, and the bias generated by insinuated grading promises, price guides, and guarantees. If the informed collecting public believe these statements to be a basis for action, and respond, a proof of incredibility is a potential basis for redress.

It has been argued by "informed" individuals in many of the threads that grading exceptions are an anomaly, and that redress is guaranteed. If a class, or individual action can show that the "informed" statements are untrue/believed, resulting in damages, and that appropriate damages (i.e. relative to published guides) are unavailable, class redress may result.

I believe the facts are objectively self-evident, and unqualitative or unquantitative statements are a useless unproductive exercise. I trust that we can determine a basis for meaningful discussion, minimizing personal biases. Hopefully, we the potential customers, can eventually establish a basis for fairness and adherence to published standards, and appropriate damages remuneration, prior to formal adjudication.

JMHO :thumb:

 

Wow Redwin, maybe you should try a higher tier TPG....but if you're into buying any ole TPG, there is Irish2ice grading service that I would recommend......:devil:

 

Holy crap, I feel like I'm reading microbial theses again. Whole lot of $10 words in $1 forum. Where on God's green earth did you learn to write this way and WHY on earth would you bring it to a coin forum?

 

You are right, to each his own. The one glaring inaccuracy is that "people are entitled to throw their money away as they choose, and others are entitled to be more thrifty in their spending." That is a total crock! Over the years, when I have bought and resold slabbed coins by PCGS and NGC, I have consistently made money--lots of money. I did not buy the coins originally with intent to resell, but one never knows. On the other hand, the raw ones were far less marketable for a price commensurate with original purchase expense. That is simple fact in my case, and sufficient reason to purchase slabbed coins. The old adage of "buy the coin and not the holder" is fine if you have no intent EVER to remarket or trade coins. End of story on that aspect.

As regard "dealers and buyers finding common ground," I can't tell you how many times I ended up overpaying for a coin that was represented as one thing, but ended up being another. You will come back, and reiterate that one has to be an expert grader--well, I am an experienced grader, and still had a number of unpleasant surprises. TPGs have leveled out the playing field. I think you just don't wish to acknowledge the financial aspects of the hobby that are operative.

 

I'm completely lost after trying to read this. I have no idea what you said. Can you explain it in simple terms?

 

Let me translate this. I am not sure about some of it, though.
Lance.

My opinion...

I read most of this and I generally agree. Frankly, the TPGs have their pros and cons.

Smart collectors see through their game. IMO the TPGs ignore standards.

The feds tried to get involved but there was no support. (Investors like price guides and TPG guarantees.) TPGs would defend themselves but both sides know there is no case if there are no damages.

I posted here my view about TPG grading and their slanted policies. If we smart collectors join forces we can sue their pants off.

Some guys say grading mistakes are rare and there's always a fair way to deal with them. One of us, or all of us, should say BS, prove the TPGs wrong, so we can have a class action suit.

Facts are facts. You know what they say about opinions. I think we can sort this out without getting all emotional. What we need is a standard, and punishment for not using it, without getting all messy in court.

...my opinion.

 

Thanks, that was alot easier for me to understand

 

Buy the coin, not the slab. I like mine raw. Heck, I've been known to crack out many a coin thus liberating it from its plastic tomb.

That being said, I own coins slabbed by PCGS, NGC and ANACS. And generally I'd rank them in that order. People like to poo-poo ANACS. There are some great coins in ANACS slabs if you're willing to look hard enough. Which brings me back to my original point:

Buy the coin and not the slab.

 

That's not a crock, it's reality. How many people do you know strive to collect slabbed MS/PR70 labeled coins from either PCGS or NGC? In the past year since I joined CT, I've seen more than one thread of people, who have passed through here, who were/are working on a MS or PR70 registry set. The 69 label is much more reasonable, yet they seek out the 70.

Hence my statement, "people are entitled to throw their money away as they choose, and others are entitled to be more thrifty in their spending."

And was your arm being twisted, forcing you to overpay for the coin(s)? Could you have not walked away? Was this pre-TPG or post_TPG?

In so far as your statement, "You will come back, and reiterate that one has to be an expert grader--", on the contrary one should be knowledgeable at grading.

As many of us are.

If you wish to accept their subjective opinion as being more than just that; however, reality must set in at some point that you only really have a paid opinion and nothing more.

No, I acknowledge them, I choose not to endorse them.

 

Well, not nothing more as you get a guarantee of authenticity and grade protection, along with a protective holder. But in most cases I would agree. It's all about the opinions of highly skilled graders and finalizers.
Lance.

 

Yes, opinions, which can and do vary. Mr. Brooklyn has a thread going about a SLQ with a MS66 on the NGC label, and there are a number of members who feel as he does, it's over graded and doesn't deserve a verification sticker from CAC.

 

Man, you must have had bad experiences with TPGS so as to feel so negative against them. I have not had that bad fortune, so I no problem with a paid "third party" opinion. Moreover, as I have said a few times in this thread, it has served me well in terms of resale. So, one man's meat is another's poison, and we shall agree to disagree. Despite my experience at grading and purchasing both now, and in previous decades before TPGs, I have had many successes and a few failures, as have everybody else. No one is infallible, and I choose to buy mostly slabbed coins, by PCGS and NGC. I ONLY BUY what I like--nobody twists my arm, and I love my collection, and have done well, numismatically and financially.