NGC or PCGS: The Ultimate Poll

I dunno if anybody has said this before, but just my opinion. Having owned several hundred plus of both PCGS and NCG coins, I like the look of the PCGS holder better. The white background of the NGC plastic seems more distracting to the coin's appearance (IMHO) than PCGS clear slab. This is irrespective of one's opinion of how well/poorly they may grade.

 

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As a toned coin collector, I feel just the opposite. Toned coins contrast much better against the white insert. In addition, NGC coins are easier to photograph and slab as the slab glare is not as severe.

 

Makes sense. Although I have collected toned coins, for years and years, I've had Morgan blazers, which definitely look better in the clear slab (to me). Now that I am doing Franklins, I do see your point.

 

In regards to the copper coin grading debate. After sending in many raw Lincoln cents to PCGS and had them bagged for reasons I couldn't see, I started sending the same coins to NGC and having them grade. I stopped sending my copper to PCGS all together. Weather correct or not (and maybe even a conspiracy theory) over the years of buying coins and attending major shows, I started to notice the absence of low VALUE coins in PCGS holders and if so, a low grade seemed present. I started to get the mindset that PCGS just didn't respect copper and thinks of it as a lowly entry level type of coin and they would prefer to grade exceptional high value coins like old gold and such. If they are the "big dogs" where does copper fit in their business model? I don't see them as STRICTER on copper, I just don't think they like it. Is a 1957 D Lincoln cent David Hall quality? That mentality surely is pervasive throughout the company and the dealer network.

I believe that NGC likes, loves and RESPECTS the beauty of copper as much as those that collect it. It shows in the grades they award them. It's not that they are less strict but willing to award coins a grade they deserve and are proud to see the coins in their holders. Its having the enthusiasm to say WOW that $5 1957 D Lincoln cent is 66* all day long, and if someone says naw, thats just a plain 65, then they are crazy. As a copper coin lover and collector myself, I had to wake up and realize the understanding/desire NGC has for copper coin surfaces.

With that said, I do own both companies slabs for sure, this has just been my observation, weather true or not. Although not based on fact, I hope that this post seems even a little intelligent. In the end we are arguing over 1 grade point, which is really no big deal.

Matt

 

First off, I just expressed some opinions about some diff. coins that I own, & also ones that I had graded by PCGS. You totally mis-characterized--& got wrong--almost everything I said. As far as:

"but your contention is that they (TPG's) are wrong about all of your coins."--I never said that. I don't know how you get that. What I said was, that I thought PCGS totally mis-graded 2 of the coins I submitted--not all 8. One of the reasons I believe that is that I compared them to PCGS coins of the same series, that I think are fairly graded. In fact, I think all of the PCGS coins that I bought (pre-slabbed, as it were) are fairly graded, or I wouldn't have bought them.

What is your contention? That PCGS never gets it wrong? And anyone who disagrees with any of their grading is a clueless grader, who's wearing "rose colored glasses"? I happen to agree with GDJMSP:

"One of the problems PCGS is known for is that they can be very inconsistent at times. Those same two coins you mentioned, if resubmitted could easily grade as you expected they would. Or, they might not. You never know with them."

The 2 NGC slabbed coins I own: what I should've said is that I think they're conservatively graded, probably more so than the PCGS coins I own. One might be worthy of re-submitting IMO, but you think that's just my "rose colored glasses". In reality, It's the result of spending lots & lots of time looking at dozens of Texas commem. halves, & a 1926 Sesqui gold 2 1/2 $, both PCGS & NCG. These were the nicest ones I could find--at a fair price-- after a lot of effort, to me that's called "cherry picking", to you "rose colored glasses".

The PCGS coins I bought already slabbed--again, I think are fairly graded, nice coins, that's why I bought them, after looking at many, many coins. So again, your contention that "I think that TPG's are wrong about all of my coins" is absurd.

At least--before you label someone as a clueless, newbie grader with no "grading skills"--could you take the time to read what they actually said, & get your "indisputable facts" straight? Thank you.

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I tend to buy my moderns in NGC & ANACS slabs. I like the look of the coins in NGC though.

 

By the way, the results came back from PCGS on this coin and they wouldn't cross it as MS67 (as I fully expected). So NGC thinks this is a "67", while PCGS thinks this is (I am guessing) a "66". That's about $1000 difference in value according to the guides. So NGC is saying it's base price is roughly $1400 and PCGS roughly $400.

I have never had PCGS upgrade an NGC coin, (they always cross either at grade or below grade), though I hear from others that does happen on occasion.

 

If you don't want to be treated like a newbie, then stop acting like one. You show up claiming that 2 of the 8 coins that you submitted in your life are undergrades and that submitting coins to PCGS is a waste of money. Then you go on to say that you don't understand why your Saint was given a genuine grade and complain that PCGS is giving you low grades because you are a small submitter. Then I give you very good advice and you fly off the handle and get all defensive. Yep, you are a newbie! No doubt about it!

So you agree with Doug huh? Post photos of the coins that you think were undergraded and let Doug grade them. I think that will be the end of your agreement with him as he is a tougher grader than any TPG grader.

 

Calm down. Do you think it's possible that 2 coins could be undergraded? I know I do. Your response came off very harsh and if I were him, I would get defensive, too. I don't believe Woody was saying 25% of all coins sent in will be undergraded, he said 2 of the 8 coins he has sent in were.

 

I simply read what you write Doug. Given the fact that he is talking about a recent submission, it really isn't relevant that you agree with TPG grades from the late 80's and early 90's. Let's look at the facts shall we. Here are your grades compared to the TPG grades in my GTG threads over the years.


Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t40554/#ixzz1vMrELAeb MS68
Doug's Grade: MS66

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t154768/#ixzz1vMrxSiBr MS67 5FS
Doug's Grade: MS65 5FS

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t150482/#ixzz1vMsgTWhb MS66
Doug's Grade: MS63

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t112983/#ixzz1vMtvoCzG MS65 FS
Doug's Grade: Genuine (Damaged) The infamous shovel scoop coin

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t149207/#ixzz1vMvCdyEe 7 (circa 1997-2000) MS65
Doug's Grade: MS64 (Although personally you graded it AU58)

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t149686/#ixzz1vMw5zsmE 4 (circa 1989-1992) MS65
Doug's Grade: MS64

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t119947/#ixzz1vMwwvn4E MS65
Doug's Grade: AU55

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t75780-2/#ixzz1vMyUGGLF MS66
Doug's Grade: MS66 A quote by Doug in that thread: "Boy Howdy ! I'm gonna have to agree with Mark and Mike both - in the same thread Somebody call Chicken Little 'cause the sky is defintely gonna start falling"

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t66737/#ixzz1vMzSfSLC MS66
Doug's Grade: MS64

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t47531/#ixzz1vN0QxHVG AU58
Doug's Grade: MS64 (This was my AU64 trickery thread)

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t47534/#ixzz1vN18jQRP MS64*
Doug's Grade: MS62

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t46941/#ixzz1vN1gG91J MS65
Doug's Grade: MS65 Doug actually guessed that the TPG would grade it MS66 but we will give you credit for getting this one right.

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t46940/#ixzz1vN2ZBai0 AU58
Doug's Grade: AU58 This was another one of my AU64 trickery threads but you nailed it.

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t46799/#ixzz1vN39Zdn4 MS66
Doug's Grade: MS66

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t46012/#ixzz1vN3cmrhb MS64
Doug's Grade: MS63

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t45752/#ixzz1vN43ixYv MS68 FS
Doug's Grade: MS67

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t44757/#ixzz1vN4nqaXC MS66
Doug's Grade: MS67 WOW, Doug actually overgraded a coin!

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t44669/#ixzz1vN5Bn700 MS66
Doug's Grade: MS62

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t44606/#ixzz1vN5Y4qLT MS63*
Doug's Grade: AU55

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t43510/#ixzz1vN6Bk0fa MS66
Doug's Grade: MS66 BTW, I sold this coin for $1,350 a few months ago on E-Bay

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t44474-2/#ixzz1vN6oreAN MS68* FB
Doug's Grade: MS67* FB

You agreed with the TPG 5 out of 21 times. You overgraded twice. That means that two thirds of the time you think that a TPG coin is overgraded. It might not be every coin, but it's a lot. And both coins that were graded before you claim the standards changed, you still undergraded.

I would say I hear fine!

 

Would you characterize the TPG getting 75% correct a waste of money? It wasn't about the 2 coins, it was about his overall perception that the TPG's are undergrading his coins. BTW, I have spent the last week on this forum arguing with people who claim that the TPG's have loosened their grading standards.

 

I'd say more than 90% of the time the TPG is correct. And yes I am saying 10 or so percent of the time, TPG's are wrong. Whether it be overgraded or undergraded, graders/people make mistakes and thus I will not say it's the grading standards. IMHO I don't think standards have loosened up, except for 70's, but that's a different topic. However, I do believe PCGS is more strict with grades for copper coins.

 

I tend to like the look of larger diameter coins ( halves and up) in the newer, 4 pronged NGC holders, especially silver dollars. My smaller coins (quarters and smaller) I prefer to have in the PCGS holders.

 

I'd say TPGs, as a whole, are a waste of money.

 

I am not sure where this thread is going, but I still prefer PCGS.

(insert koolaid here)

 

Would that be post #127 in stead of #129?

 

My use of hyperbole does not change the fact that you disagree with TPG grades more than any other knowledgeable collector I have ever met. And that was the point of my statement; that you undergrade the majority of coins with respect to TPG standards. And on average, you grade at least on point lower than the TPG's.

Why do you keep saying I don't listen? I think I have proven that you forget more than I don't hear.

 

I'd disagree most strongly. Before TPGs existed, it was the "wild west," and a far more adversarial relationship existed between hobbyists and dealers. Misgrading was the rule, rather than the rare exception (as with TPGs). Coin doctoring was at an all-time high in the early 80's, and while it is far from gone, the TPG services minimize its impact. They also make it possible for internet purchases, as one can see if they think a coin is what they are looking for via photography, and buy it, without traveling all over the country, if one is reasonably savvy With return policies by reputable dealers, that makes life far easier. I live in an area where few coin shows take place that are not a 4-6 hour drive away, and buy lots of coins when it motivates me to do so--for me it is a "time and aggravation" saver . It has enhanced the hobby, and the investment aspects immeasurably,and I really don't see the merit to this back and forth argument. Obviously, some individuals are expert graders here. Others are only "good at it" (like myself), despite over 40 years of collecting. As I said before,TPGs level the playing field,and eliminate a lot of worry and blatant dishonesty from the field. I don't pretend to be the ultimate expert grader--am I pretty good at it? Yes, of course, as I have studied it for years. However, I like expert vindication from a third party, and PCGS and NGC do exactly that for me.

Newer collectors and not well-trained ones are given an essential service--if they have price guides and pricing information, they can safely make an enlightened decision, and learn from successes, rather than mistakes. I hailed the advent of third party grading, as it has made my life easier for the past 20 plus years as a collector, and made it possible for the young collector to start out with nice coins that are known to be safe investments. The raw coin market is very tough--even experts get fooled often.