Dutch Ducat question

There is a considerable difference between those statements. The independence (formally recognized at the end of the 30 Years War) of the Seven Provinces, basically what today is the Netherlands, sure had a significant impact on much of Europe. What I found peculiar, to put it very mildly, was the "If the Dutch had not prevailed [in 1648], Europe today would be like today's Middle East" statement.

Christian

 

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Maybe, but consider what Europe would have been like if England had remained in the hands of Catholics and aligned with France under the triple allience of the Hapsburg, and French and English Tudors, espeically if Mary had married the future King Philip. Until today they might well still be miered in religous dominated Monarchies without the Dutch influence. Look at the fun the Duke of Alva accomplished in the Spanish Netherlands. It is very reminincent of current Middle Eastern affairs.


Amanda

 

European history, and what and how Europe is today, has in my opinion been shaped by much more than the Peace of Münster. We've had the Lutheran Reformation before, and the French Revolution afterwards, just to pick two. (And as for monarchies and religion, the Dutch queen is, even today, called queen "by the Grace of God" even though politically she is part of a parliamentary democracy.) But if anybody believes that the 1648 Dutch-Spanish peace shaped our history so much more than anything else, I won't argue here. The Dutch ducat sure is a fine coin, and that "unevenly split" date is interesting ...

Christian

 

Hello

the French revolution was a mess and accomplished very litter, and that would include the Paris Commune. The reformation was obviously important but in of itself would be no different then say the Shia, Sheit rift in Islam. I think, as a student of the arts, that the Dutch experience was responsible or the catalyst of the later European shift to a humanized and liberal society. And I believe that is why their revolution in the arts was unique.

Amanda

 

I'm not going to get into politics, but if the Dutch Republic had been crushed in the Thirty Years' War, there would have been no English Glorious Revolution in 1688 and the associated Bill of Rights of 1689.

Without this precedent, there would have be not been an enlighted American Revolution with its own Bill of Rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

So let's thank this Dutchman and his English wife:




guy

 

I admire the Netherlands Ducat, as must many others as it's been produced for 500 years or so.

I was unaware of this "unique" date type Gelderland year issue until now.
I also find it listed KM-5 on page 1081 of the sixth edition 'World Gold Coins 1601-Present.
I'd imagine it's large mintages that keep prices on these old beauties so low.
I prefer raw coins, holding them gives me a feeling of their history.
(understood there are some coins that shouldn't be handled)
but to each his own.
thanks for showing,
I learned something new today.
best wishes. Herbie

 

"

Nice historic note, and another favorite type,
the "Gvlielmvs Et Marias",
alas, I hold just a half pence :hail:

 

You should, Herbie, you should It is the most amazing world coin I've even seen. And you will be surprised many times with other unusual variants od the Dutch gold ducats, you'll see. BTW, I would say the first attempt to mint provincial gold ducat was closer to 400 than to 500 years ago - in 1583 in Holland province. This is extremely rare coin, I saw it twice on auctions in 2002 (at Lanz München auction, sold for $4,167 + BP) and in 2010 (at Künker, sold for $6,449 + BP), both VF condition. However, it was a ducat different in picture from later "usual" ducats, minted regularly in several provincial mints from 1586. This date is usually considered by writers to be the birth year of the Dutch gold ducat.

Almost each ducat (each mint and each date) has got different mintage. All numbers are recorded in the records of all provincial mints. About ducat discussed (Gelderland 1638) common mintage for years 1635-1640 is known. In those years 332,920 golden single ducats was minted in the mint of Gelderland province. In records we may read that ducats were minted in this time period with dates of 1637, 1638 and 1640.
There is nothing said in mint records about 1638 piedfort ducat (6,9g), coin known from old auctions. Also ducat with date of 1639 exists.

332,920 pieces - is it large ar small mintage? In the same time period were minted also:
- 93,603 marks (not pieces) of whole daalders (with the date of 1639 and 1640) and half daalders (dated 1637)
- 590,790 pcs of duiten (small denomination).
Therefore we may say that number of ducats minted it's a lot. From the other hand huge part of this mintage was melted down, because gold ducat was a coin for trade, circulation in various countries, not only in Low Countries. It those countries Dutch ducats were very often melted down to get material for minting national coins.

I found this 163-8 once in my archives of auction records, sold in June 6, 1967 (Schulman auction house, condition VF/VF-).

Please, do not believe in everything you read in Krause's "World Gold Coins" when we talk about the Dutch gold ducats. Dates, variants and their pricing/rarity seems to be far from the truth in this catalogue.

 

Bart9349 - do you still have this 163-8 ducat?

 

First, I want to say that I thank everyone for reviving this thread and the willingness to share their knowledge and unique insight.

The 163-8 ducat is comfortably nestled all snug in some SDB far, far away.

guy

 

What a pleasant surprize to return back to cointalk and find the revival of this thread and some new insight from some new guys and my old friend Doug
The gold ducat is the a great coin and should be in every world gold collectors collection.

 

Thanks goldducat, I recovered my example while metal detecting a shoreline site
that has seen activity since first settlement ca 1600.
It is a 1780 'Holland' (HOL rather than TRA to left of sword) issue, I'd imagine scarcer than the Trade Strikes. (note cud/die break in legend to right of foot, and another on bottom reverse)
only a small premium over spot in fine grade according to Standard Catalog of WGC 6th ed. (doesn't list mintages) I don't plan on selling, just interesting that a rather old and very attractive coin would be listing so low. This was Gold #1 recovered, early this year I dug an Austrian 4 Ducat from 1915, likely a restrike, as with the 1780, it's very thin in comparison to it's diameter. Odd to have recovered my two gold coins in Ducat denoms, but my world coin recoveries outnumber US recoveries in general. I mostly search the tidal areas of a seaport city, and apparently those sailors got drunk, fell down and lost coins

 

I am not sure what you want to say with "Trade Strikes". As fot the trade Dutch gold ducats with this year, we know ducats minted in Holland and Utrecht with inscriptions of HOL(land) and TRA(iectum)? TRAIECTUM is the Latin name of Utrecht city.

Mintage of gold ducats (based on mint records) is:
1778-1781 Holland - 1,638,070 ducats
1780-1782 Utecht - 623,420 ducats

In trade, coin finds and in auction results both of them are common coins, however I see 1780 Holland gold ducats definitely more ofthen than 1780 Utrecht strikes. Also the third province minted 1780 ducats - it's West Friesland, with "W:FR:" at the end of the legend. However, 1780 West Friesland gold ducat is very rare coin, never found on auctions. I know only one copy from Dutch museum collecion.

 

Seems this book has a lot of misinformation Photos shown under 'Trade Coinage' in the above mentioned reference show the 'HOL' mark, on issues from Holland, Batavia, and Amsterdam, I see 'TRA' on issues from Utrecht, Overyssel and Friesland. Oddly enough, it lists the West Freisland 1780 Ducat you mention (KM 93) with the "W:FR:" mark at the same price as most common ducats ( about $300 in VF), the only ones higher with that mark are some from 1660-1670 at double the above price. (adjusted for changes in gold price) If the WF 1780 is an R6 or above, this book is useless...
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Herbie.