I was wondering if anyone here could attribute these two large cents. The 1803 - I've tried and come up with different options everytime because I really think I'm just taking guesses. The 1797 is so far gone that I don't have a prayer and it may be too far gone for anyone to do it from photos. Unfortunately - my photos aren't coming out whether I use lamps, natural light etc so I apologize. I've picked the ones that came out the best which for most of them are angled. I realize in the 1797 - I don't have any photos where you can see the date clearly so I'll try to take a few more that might show that in case it's necessary. I appreciate any help anyone can offer. I love large cents but honestly know nothing about them. 1803 - 1797
Just as an FYI - which means nothing. For the 1803 - I keep coming back to S-244 and S-265 (fraction doesn't look large on mine though). I just seem to find ways to eliminate all the others
The 1803 looks like a S245 to me. The 3 is imbedded in the drapery, so that narrows it down to the 244, 245, or 261. The point of leaf by the D in united on the 244 is up by the curve of the D whereas your is closer to the upright of the D. On the 261 the leaf under the T in CENT covers a portion of the T, it is clear of the T on yours. So that leaves the 245, the unicorn variety. The 3 is imbedded as it is on yours, the right side of the T in liberty is over the junction of the hair and forehead, the leaf point is at the upright of the D. I can't exactly tell, but your coin looks like is has the unicorn break coming off the forehead. Check out this website: http://www.largecents.net/collection/coinpics/s245.jpg He has a complete 1803 variety set so you can click through. By the way, the 265 has a pointed one, along with the 264 which shares the same obverse, so it's not that.
Thank you very much for taking the time to write up this response. I've gone through your explanations and the photos in that link and I have to agree. I had looked at the 245 but kept dismissing it because of the breaks and cud - not really thinking it through that they are unique to that coin. Looking at the coin in hand again - that mark at her forehead is very subtle and much easier to see in these photos. Since everything else points to 245 though - that must be what the mark is. Thanks again - I can put the # on the 2x2 now and be happy. I have another 1803 somewhere that I should dig out again
This is a good example of why you can't count on breaks and cuds to eliminate varieties, though they can be a great aid in identifying them when they are there. Also, both breaks and cuds are generally not unique to a particular coin since they originate from the die though often only 1 or a few survive the terminal die state. Problems with individual coins are usually associated with planchet or striking errors. Congratulations on both your coin AND your interest in the numismatics behind the coin.
So I was all excited after this to go find some of the other older large cents I have and try to assign an atttribution. I quickly realized that the examples I have are pretty far gone and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to assign them. Here is another 1803 that looks like it spent some time in the ground. I haven't been able to figure this one out but I've tried Here is an 1802 that I've tried to assign one to as well. I have tried a few times and come up with S-242. The photos actually make the coins look much worse than in hand but it's good for seeing every flaw.... I've had a lot of fun trying to do it - even though it's been less than productive - it's still been fun and a learning experience. I think my plan is to purchase a few that aren't attributed that are in better condition to keep trying to do it. I was also looking at photos on ebay and trying to do it which is fun too.
The 1803 is a large fraction reverse that narrows it down to 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, and 265. The gap between the ends of the wreath is below the serif of the S that eliminates 257 and 265. On 258, 259, and 260 the date is rather compact with the 3 right up against the 0. On 261 it is widely spaced with plenty of room between the 03. Yours is widely spaced S-261. What Marshall said about die cracks hold for this one. S-261 almost always comes with a nice curving crack on the obv from 9:00 to 6:00 and it is not there on this piece. OK I'm back and i've done the )@ and i was mistaken about what I thought earlier, it is S-242
