Fake 1893 P Morgan Dollar

Just wanted everyone to see this. Doesn't attract to a magnet and weighs 23.3 grams. Circumference and thickness is spot on. I showed this to 2 reputable dealers in the area where I use to live. Neither weighed it but didn't determine it to be fake from looking at it. I bought this about a year ago at a flea market from a guy who had a bunch of different items from estate sales that he buys and this was in along with some other foreign coins. I know that is a red flag right there but for $25 I'd figure to give it a shot in case the guy didn't know what he had. I am just getting around to posting pictures. I haven't checked to see if it is silver yet. Hopefully it is and I can get some of that money back. Anyway can anyone spot anything off other than the weight? Looks like a pretty good fake but I have a novice eye.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Would you share why you know its a fake.
Iam not as good as some on spotting these errors
Thanks

 

It weighs 23.3 grams. Proper weight is 26.73 grams. (My scale doesn't have 100th's)

 

Looks like a pretty good counterfeit if it is one. There are a few things that bother me though. The rim looks a bit off, looks like its a bit uneven. And for a coin to be in that condition but to be so clear in every aspect on the obverse makes it a bit suspect.

 

That's way too lite for it to be real. There can be an underweight of the coin due to circulation wear, but not an entire 3+ grams.

 

What struck me was the stars on the reverse between "United States of America" and "One Dollar" The pointed ends stick out too much.

 

The first redflag this is a fake is the weight.

The weight of a Morgan dollar is know to be 26.73 grams. The one in this thread is stated to weigh 23.3 grams, which is exactly 3.43 grams under the normal weight.

As I mentioned there can be a small variance in the weight due to circulation wear; however that variance would not 3.43 grams.

 

Just a note on buying/selling at flea markets... I'm mostly a seller, and sometimes throw in some low grade Morgans along with my assortment of Ikes, Kennedy halves and Sacs (all of which sell at a premium over face). I've had buyers that carry a small case containing a magnet, dial calipers, digital scale and loupe. These are the smart buyers, and although not perfect, the few tests they give to coins will weed out a large percentage of fakes.

 

Agreed. The only thing I didn't have that day was a scale. Go figure

 

Before getting to the point, I'm not sure you'll have much success pursuing a refund from a seller when you bought the coin over a year ago. It's possible that they won't know who you are. Even if they know you, there's the fraudulent nature of this, where they could claim that it isn't the coin you bought from them.

Anyway, to the point of the local dealers, you said they both said the coin looks real to them. Did I read that correctly? To me, the surfaces look way too lifeless for the level of details present in the coin. Anyway, assuming the surfaces are legitimately silver, it's still possible that the coin is cast silver over copper (or something similar in theory). If the two dealers both think the coin is real, it's possible (though unlikely) that your scale is off. In any event, the coin doesn't "look" right to me. The edge looks a bit bigger than expected (relative to the placement of the rim). Also, the details are inconsistent. The face of Liberty seems far too sharp for the level of wear on the bolles and hairline. A Morgan expert should be able to give a much better opinion than mine, though.

Edit: Also, I just saw the reverse. The wear on the tail above the arrows seems weird. It's like someone ground that part down then scratched in the cross hatching. I realize what I'm saying makes no sense, but that's what I'm seeing. Another issue is the wings themselves. 1893-P Morgans are weakly struck in the middle... but not enough to completely obliterate the wings to the extent shown in your photo. Also, the bottom/back of the hair seems extremely worn relative to everything else. I would guess cast based upon the wings, to be honest.

 

The main thing that makes it look fake to me is the wear. Like icerain mentioned. The way it is meant to look circulated, yet it is still so smooth. With the kind of wear on the breast feathers, I would think you would see circulation scratches and dings all over the place, especially on the obverse.

 

Not a good fake IMO
And I"m surprised that no one has mentioned that huge seam from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock on the obverse.

 

An attempt at a refund is moot. I have since moved and it will cost me more than $25 to get there and back. Besides, at $25 I am not too worried about it. To the point about the local dealers, both did briefly look at it, determined it to be cleaned but didn't mention anything that they thought it was fake. And as far as my scale, it's not off. I weighed all of my other raw Morgans and they were all within spec. This was the only one off significantly.

 

It's funny what you don't see what is right in front of your face. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Obv: The date is off, especially the 1 and non symmetrical 8. Also, the denticle count is off.

Rev: The beak features and neck feathers look like a turkey vulture and the tail/feathers between the legs is incomplete.

 

Wow, nice eye. I see what you mean by the tail/feathers being incomplete.

 

I wanted to replicate Susan Headley's little experiment she pulled off at the F.U.N. convention a few years back (where about 50% of the dealers were fooled by her unmarked Chinese replicas), so I purchased an 1803 bust dollar, 90% silver, from one of eBay's best known seller of Chinese forgeries. Took it to two local B&M's, where both owners/dealers declared the coin genuine. Neither weighed the coin or did any testing other than a ring test and visual inspection. One offered me $900 on the spot, the other wanted to send it in for grading. I think both were a little upset with me after I revealed the nature of my visit. No one, especially "professionals", like to be fooled. The truth of the matter is, many dealers know a lot less than some of the more knowledgable CT members when it comes to counterfeit detection.

 

is the rotation correct ?

 

One of the Chinese made fakes that have flooded the US market in the past 3 years, mostly via eBay.

 

The obverse looks a little "Mushy" and doesn't look right though I can't quite put my finger on it. Thanks for sharing.