Daniel Carr

Different issue with the early private US mints than with the Carr fantasy tokens like the Amero - authorized only by Mr. Carr, and not a federal or state mint. Those were accepted as legal tender. Two different situations. By the way, I live only a couple miles from the original Charlotte mint.

 

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How can it be different? Private mints were not authorized by the US government. Bechtler certainly wasn't authorized by the USA nor the NC state government. There is no difference between Bechtler and Carr.

When currency was gold & silver, coinage was nothing more than an assay of a specific amount of PM. The gold was "coined" as a means to make the assay portable. It made no difference if a private mint did it or a government mint except that the government mint of course had the reputation for being honest. Case in point, the coinage act of 1792 stated that anyone with gold could come to the mint in Philly and have that gold assayed and then coined, free of charge. It also specified the death penalty for someone in the US mint to produce a a coin which was short of gold. Very good reason to trust the government's assay.

However Bechtler had a very high quality reputation as well and gold "coined" by Bechtler was trusted to contain the amount of gold stated.

 

Actually, the first gold discover in north America was in Midland NC. That is closeish to Charlotte though. It was John Reeds son. It was a Sunday and instead of going to church, some of the kids of the family were playing in the creek. Reed's son saw a yellow thing in the ole creek, and pulled it out. This was along Little Meadow Creek. For 2 years Reed used it as a door stop because he thought there was something special about it. Then he took it to a jeweler one day and sold it for a weeks pay, $3.50. He thought it was a fair price, and had asked that much. It was a 17-18 pound gold nugget. At the time it was worth about $3,600. He set up shop with some 3 neighbors, thinking that he might make some change. In the first year of operation, they found the biggest nugget that was to be found on the site. It weighed 28 pounds, and was discovered by a slave named Peter, I think. Where the heck did I get all of this info? I was there last weekend.

Oh, and Mackwork, I wonder if I will ever bump into you at a coin show.

 

I used Charlotte to refer to the area in general. Certainly it's more recognizable than Midland. The point however was that gold in the area was first coined by private mints yet the inhabitants then, and collectors now consider them coins. Not tokens, rounds, etc.

 

And that still doesn't give you the right to speak for me. So please, spare me from your rants.

 

I figured it would be. If you look hard enough on google maps, you can find a "town" called Barbeque NC. I tell you, that town is small!

 

Daniel Carr's Overstruck 1970 and 1975 Eisenhowers are no more counterfeit than a gold plated 1883 No Cents Nickel and therein lies the problem that folks are struggling with.

Folks who collect Eisenhower Dollars know full well that the 1970 and 1975 coins do not exist and can fully justify the "what if" qualities of these fantasy pieces.

However, there are folks out there that don't have a clue.

The whole idea behind issuing coins by the Federal Government was an attempt to create a common form of exchange using something that folks already considered valuable. Copper, Silver, Gold. These metals had intrinsic value based upon weight and the Federal Government standardized those weights in the form of coins based upon the decimal dollar. Metals were alloyed so that the receiver was in fact receiving near precious metal value in the coins either received as change or paid out for a purchase. Thise coins, having the Federal Governments assay on them in the form of one dollar, fifty cents, twenty dollars, or whatever, in theory could be melted and still retain near the value of the piece.

Along comes Daniel Carr with an innovative idea on how to create Fantasy Coins without devaluing the piece beyond its original Federal Issue value.

The 1964-D Franklin Half Dollars are still 90% Silver Half Dollar parent coins and as such, have a value equal to whats stamped on the reverse. A Half Dollar.
The 1964-D Peace Dollar is still a 90% Silver Parent Coin and as such, is still worth whats stamped on the Reverse. One Dollar.
The Eisenower Dollars are still their parent coin metals and as such, regardless of what they "look" like, are still worth One Dollar.

All the above have simply been altered, via restriking, to look like something that did not exist. It's up to the "collector" to know the difference. The general public doesn't really care other than when they take em to the bank, they want to receive their "face" value.

Daniel has created a market using the skills he possesses and the tools that he own. The coins are readily distinguishable to the trained eye as NOT being original government strikings. To the untrained eye, they could literally be anything AS LONG AS THEY ARE REDEEMABLE AT FACE VALUE.

When I spend an IKE Dollar at McDonalds, the cashier has no clue as to what the piece might be much less its intrinsic metal value. S/He only wants something recognized as and redeemable AS a Dollar coin. What date or mintmark it might be is unimportant.

What I'm trying to say hear is that the line Daniel is walking is very, very thin but also very legal accoording to the letter of the law. Whether folks want to purchase what he produces is up to them.

But, keep in mind, if I spend $1,000 on a 1921 Peace Dollar and then spend $80 on a Daniel Carr restrike Fantasy Piece, to the everyday business man, they are only worth two bucks and the thief who steals them will probably spend them for two bucks.

1921 Peace Dollars are available as counterfeits from our Chinese buddies but a majority of those coins do not have any silver and were not created from Peace Dollars originally issued by the US Government. Those that do have silver, are of questionable content and as such are illegal counterfeits.

I personally have quite a few Daniel Carr Restrikes. I buy them solely out of their collectibility as "restrikes". I did buy several of the 1964-D Peace Dollars for resale but other than that, nothing else which he has produced has anywhere near the resellability and as such, will simply remain in my collection.

Maybe someday, these will be desireable but I know full well that that situation will not occur during my lifetime or my childrens lifetimes. But at least I can look at the coins and appreciate them for what they really are. Fantasy Pieces with no more value than what he placed on them for their sale price and what I believe them to be.

Nothing more and nothing less.

Are they Fantasy Pieces? Yes.
Are they Counterfeits? Some may view them as such but technically they are not. You CANNOT counterfeit something which does not exist.

Do they have value? Seriously, how many folks think that IKE's have any value at all? What I value my coins at is onluy important to someone who KNOWS what an IKEs value might be. If we agree, then there's value. If we don't, then it does not matter to me.

 

I never expected such an interesting discourse. I am also enjoying my first introduction to the man's work. I had never heard the expression "fantasy coins" before. Interesting all very interesting. Coins are sure exciting. I like how the artful coins reflect our times. That might be my favorite part.

P.S. I still feel hesitant in calling some of his work coins. Bullion feels more accurate. Where there is no "In God we Trust," I sort of automatically hesitate. I realize that there are many coins without that motto, but in modern times, I sort of perfer it.

 

Just a thought....
I wonder if Daniel Carr had not been seriously considered if his work would even be viewed in the numismatic community for discussion.

Some of Carr's work makes me think of Hobo coins.

 

That's true... he certainly didn't "nail" every design, and some do have that "computer generated" look. But overall, his artistic quality blows away most current U.S. mint designs.

 

I don't understand it. I believe if I had a retired minting press I would hire some talented artists and come up with much more interesting pieces. To me the fantasy piece is not a counterfeit, as my first knee jerk reaction used to tell me.... but on that token they really aren't that impressive. To me they scream out "You the consumer are an idiot and you will buy anything I make." Furthermore I do not understand how you could go from being a part of state quarter designs to mass producing the 1909 Morgan Dollar. Isn't this like Halk Hogan going from WWF superstar to doing cheesy 3rd rate infomercials? I'm sorry if I have offended anyone.

 

What's different is that the time period in the history of this country for one thing - private mints to produce legal tender are no longer allowed in the USA. You may feel free to call them coins if you want, and I'll call them tokens. That's your prerogative, and mine as well. Try going out and spending an Amero at a store.

 

This Georgia-born guy must correct the above statement. Dahlonega, GA produced gold and was the site of a branch mint. Dalton, GA produces carpet. Two different towns in different parts of the state.

 

Bruce , wish I could afford a couple pieces from them Georgia mints . Didn't they open at the same time , or at least start producing gold coin in the same year ?

 

Why would anyone want a carpet made of gold?

Chris

 

It would be cool if this guy took some random pre-82 cent, and overstruck it as a 2012 or whatever IHC, with the VDB wheatie reverse. I have said this idea for a fantasy coin a lot. I still think it would look cool.

 

Yes, the Dahlonega and Charlotte Mints (as well as the New Orleans Mint) opened in 1838.

One of these days I hope to own a coin minted in Dahlonega.

 

Reminded me of a little town not far from Charlotte called Boogertown, NC. Way off topic now.

 

Well, I am surprised that this thread has not run its course yet. But there is no arguing left, so that is good. After all this talk about fantasy coins and stuff, it makes me want to make a screw press... Now, if only I knew how to make a die...

Edit: Oh, and at least barbeque is something you can eat. It has value. Of course, thats not taking into account Caz's post about the toned cent someone paid "Through the nose" for...

 

OK, but we are talking about the definition of "coin", not the definition of "legal tender". The statement was made that an object could not be called a coin unless it was issued by the government. Yet examples of coins, which you seem to acknowledge now, exist that were not issued by the mint and furthermore, I don't think there have been any government laws issued that state that a "coin" can only be created by the government. The only thing that has changed was that the government will only accept coins issued by it's mint as "legal tender".

In addition, the definition of legal tender is that you can use it to pay your taxes. Private mints at the time did not care about this designation. They were producing assayed or rather "coined" forms of gold and silver. Most people in those days paid little or no taxes so its legal tender status was meaningless. Hence, I don't think that an inherent property of an object must be government issuance before it can be called a coin.