Discounts for "cleaned" coins

A cleaner coin is a problem coin and a problem coin will always be just that: a problem coin.
For anything but very rare, expensive coins they should be avoided, no matter how tempting the price may be.
I learned this the hard way, so you can benefit from my experience.

 

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I generally only buy raw coins, unless it’s a heavily counterfeited one. I believe, as mentioned above, if it’s over 75 years old, it’s been cleaned to some degree, whether or not it’s slabbed. The reason the market does not accept “cleaned” coins is the TPG’ers have enabled inexperienced buyers, who buy the label first, and have no perception of what eye appeal means to a coin’s value. Thus, I see a lot of “uncleaned” coins that have terrible, blotchy toning or other problems selling for more than “cleaned” coins with more eye appeal. As for me, I’d probably pay more for a lightly cleaned XF coin than a supposedly uncleaned VF coin. Yes, there are harshly cleaned coins that are worth less, but that should be because their eye appeal is much less than a lower grade “uncleaned” coin.

The whole concept of eye appeal appears to have given way to labels, even when comparing two uncleaned coins. Take for example the difference between an MS69 and MS70 or the difference between two MS69's, one an "early release". Is there really significant different eye appeal between the two, enough to command significant differences in price? Or have the TPG’ers convinced us to buy “rare” labels?

 

Thanks for expressing the way I feel too.

 

You actually meant, that 1957 quarter was held by Elvis Presley's personal assistant right? That man was rich enough where he didn't likely have to handle money, he had people handle and buy things for him. :yes:

 

Tell that to the folks who buy off late night TV. The coins may not be worth it to some but are definitely worth it to others.

Of course, the real "value" of a collected coin is determined by what the "average educated" buyer will pay for it 9 out of 10 times.

As for the OP's post, cleaning along with grading is nothing more than an opinion which may or may not have a basis in fact.

Judging the degree of cleaning on ANY coin based upon a photograph has the same merit as judging the "grade" of the coin based on the photograph. It all boils down to the TPG's "opinion" which can change from submission to submission.

I personally have resubmited "Genuine - Cleaned" coins only to have them grade the second time around. One "specific" coin was a 1961 Washington Type B Reverse with a 6% Clip. The first submission came back cleaned. The crackout resubmission came back MS63.

For that matter, the TPG's have taken "cleaning" (as well as grading) to a whole new level in that, what was once a nice coin for a DANSCO now is not "good enough" simply because some TPG said it had been cleaned.

I find it odd that folks will look at a photograph of a coin which a TPG has deemed "cleaned" and agree that, yes, this coin has been cleaned yet they will argue endlessly on the grading merits of a coin from a photograph.

 

Here is a "cleaned" coin I ran at auction that went too cheap IMO.

http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=3158&lot=1395

Compare to this comparable CAC certified coin, about the same otherwise:

http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2854&lot=1713#n

I wouldn't be surprised if the grading services are using or are studying technological processes that correct the obvious problems of cleaned coins so they will pass muster with the graders; "stardust" or other substance to make the minor problems go away or be less obvious. Of course they would never admit it.

 

I agree Doug, but I think one part you are leaving out may solve the disagreement between you two. I think the price an educated buyer will pay is the reproducible value of a coin. This means its the market price, since that is what is expected to happen assuming another transaction.

One off sales happen all of the time, and cause constant consternation for price guide compilers. How do you handle a coin being sold 4 times, 3 times at $100 and the fourth time for $500? Do you average it? Then you are just creating a number at which NO coins sold. A sale between an educated buyer and seller is probably the most reproducible, therefor probably the median, sales price. As such, I would argue its the closest to "market" price that is valid.

Help any?

Chris

 

So what determines the current worth of a coin, if it's not the buyer? For most coins, isn't the so-called "worth" of a coin an average of the recent sales, which would thus include both educated and non-educated buyers?

 

What a coin is "worth" and what it actually sells for can be two completely different things.
Ideally, an informed seller and an informed buyer should arrive at an equitable price.
However that isn't the case in many instances.
Take the coin hucksters on cable TV (please!) - most of the posters here are well aware that they are selling coins at exhorbitant prices, presumably to clueless dullards who never even heard of the Red Book.
Yet they manage to stay in business year after year.
Ditto for Littleton Coins.
Likewise for the big advertisers in Coin World.
Does anyone here feel that those coins are selling for their true "worth". I know I don't.
On the other hand, I've cherrypicked dealers (who should presumably know better) & auctions and gotten some amazing bargains over the years.
I guess that all this doesn't really answer the question of what a coin is really worth though!

 

Correct! To many (too many IMO), if a coin isn't in pristine condition, or has been cleaned, it's worth melt. I don't agree with that at all. To me just about all coins have a numismatic value. It's just another example of how this hobby has gone down the tubes in the last several years. People calling themselves collectors, when they're really more like investors. Sorry for the rant.

 

If you look at the prices of rare coin in problem holders, there is a range of what they will sell for based on whether the coin has minor problems or major defects. Minor ones are light cleaning, minor reverse damage, etc.. Major problems are harsh cleaning and polishing, serious damage, grafitti on the coin, badly done artificial toning, etc.. So you could have the same coin, roughly the same grade that varies in value 2-3X.

The market has never determined exactly what esoteric things like collectables, art, coins are worth exactly unless you have a good auction house and educated buyers and sellers with bucks to spend. There are plenty of auctions where lots sold for a lot less than they were worth either unitentionally or intentionally. Just as I have seen buyers snap up items worth a lot less than market value, especially if the items are unattributed, raw and fresh.

 

The problem with that logic is that even educated buyers will at times overpay for a coin, because they want/need it, and it's worth it to them. That doesn't make them uneducated. Coin worth is a very vague value at best, and can change with economic conditions and the state of the hobby with it's up and downs through the years.

 

Its like any other collectible item... "restoration" or change alters the value. What makes that uncleaned coin valuable is that it is in its original patina. Unaltered, except by time. That it survived in that grade, all this time, without being destroyed, lost, altered, cleaned, ect... is what makes it worth more.

No different if you take two rare winchester rifles... one has the original finish after 100 years... the other has been reblued. The original will always win over with the collecting crowd. Anyone can reblue an old rifle and make it look better than it was.. but it is false. It is not a true item that survived all that time in that condition.

Now.. I buy some cleaned coins.. mainly as I got snookered at first, and learned a lesson. But when doing a project that requires inlays of say, 1911 coins in a set of exotic wood grips... I usually buy cleaned coins. No point altering an uncleaned example.

 

IMO cleaning a coin is done to deceive someone who is less knowledgeable and i will not buy them...

 

Every coin collector has been bombarded with "cleaning destroys value" over and over again. An opinion with this prevalence becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to a subject such as coins, because the “value” of a coin is dependent upon what some person is willing to pay for it. With this in mind, serious collectors will tend to avoid cleaned coins like the plague. I feel that this avoidance has little to do with personal preference, but has more to do with the stigma that has been developed around cleaned coins. Cleaned coins as a whole are considered illegitimate, or as a stand-in for “real” coins that have not been cleaned.

The argument that I hear most often towards the illegitimacy of cleaned coins is that the original surface has been removed or altered. Well, the truth of the matter is that the mint never issued tarnished coins. The surface of a tarnished coin has been chemically altered. The metal or oxide compound that constitutes the surface of a tarnished coin did not exist, or was not at the surface of the coin when it was minted. The surfaces are not original either way, and I personally find it hard to appreciate a tarnished coin.

I’ve been building a US type collection for a while, which I display on the wall in my living room. I enjoy the type collection because my guests (who are typically not terribly familiar with coins) always find it very interesting. For this purpose, I like to obtain coins that best display all of the detail that each coin type had to offer, and that “appear” to be as mint state as possible. In most cases, especially for the older silver stuff, cleaned coins are the best options. I actually like to target Unc or AU detail “cleaned” coins for the older stuff, as I typically get them at a significant discount as compared to a comparable uncleaned coin that people would appreciate less.

I’m glad that there are people out there that are willing to pay to have cleaned coins graded (don't know what they are thinking, but it feeds my collection ). However, with that being said, I do not advocate coin cleaning. I have never and will never clean a coin myself. I may not have an overwhelming appreciation for uncleaned coins, but once a coin is cleaned it can never be undone. I’m not willing to intentionally alter a piece of history, but I am willing to benefit from those that have..........When I say it like that, there doesn’t seem to be much of a difference. Oh well.

 

I believe you are pointing out the flaws in the general numismatic ideals as of late. It has spread like a cancer and I hope it stops.

The general consensus is ALL cleaning is BAD, its like lighting a book and fire until its ashes, unless of course the cleaning was done by some big expensive overpriced grading company, then cleaning is GOD.

Well I do NOT agree with the flock. I would MUCH rather have some nice high end AU cleaned coin for the same price as a F-12 uncleaned of the same coin. It is rediculous how so many flock to the idea that if some guy 200 years ago spit on his coin and rubbed it with his thumb a few times to clean the dirt the coin is forever worthless. Yet if some guy charges you 50 bucks to dunk your coin in a vat of acid its money well spent?

Well I would rather pay 50 bucks for a AU quality coin that was lightly cleaned then 1000 bucks for a VG-8 of the same coin uncleaned any day of the week TYVM.

 

That I agree!