When will it stop? Who knows. If the market deems there's a need, someone will seek to fill it. That's the nature of markets and capitalism. That's not a valid reason, IMO, to question the efficacy of the TPGs or CAC, but you are entitled to your opinion and whatever reasoning you applied to arrive at it. That said, you didn't answer the questions: What's the difference between the "premium of the CAC bean" and the "premium for a nice coin"? Why do you seem to view them as mutually exclusive? I would argue there is truly no difference and they are not mutually exclusive, but I'd like you to arrive at that conclusion yourself. The point is this: Good coins are good coins and they tend to sell for a premium, no matter if there is a CAC sticker or not. If we are truly to "buy the coin and not the slab or the bean", then premiums for quality coins are completely explainable without falling down the slippery slope of "where will it end".
If they're the same grade, the only difference is extra money to pay to get the "bean". I agree they're not mutually exclusive. If you value the bean, and want the extra time & expense involved with getting a second opinion, go for it! It's just not important enough to me to warrant the bean.
By the way, I guess some of my opinions on TPGs and CAC stem from the fact that I was heavy into collecting before any of the grading services, slabbers & beaners existed. Back then you had the typical grades from poor or cull, progressing up to uncirculated and proof. Folks weren't concerned with whether or not they had a MS 69 or 70 - the super highly subjective "MS grading game" just wasn't involved back then. Just my opinion again, but things were a lot simpler back then, and collecting wasn't the highly aggressive thing it has become these days, with so many people wanting to brag about having a higher MS number than the other guy. Anyway. no sense keeping the controversy going. I'm just an old fuddy duddy, old school, collector that doesn't care for what the hobby has become. But, I'm still allowed to have an opinion, like everyone else.
I don't care if they perform the finest job in the world...CAC is something unnecessary. It reminds me of the companies that sell individual protectors for slabs. What will appear next? A company that will certify the condition of the slabs?
You won't get an arguement from me my friend. Truer words were never spoken. Collecting coins was fun back then, long before big business attempted to ruin the hobby. I guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy too. I sure miss those days...
Here is a great example of CAC's value. This is from the "tape" between dealers . "BUY X 3/30/2012 13:07 J01 XXXXX XXXXX , Ltd. (1) XXX-XXX-XXXX ( 1 of 378 ) - Dealer web site View or print this message Buy $2 1/2 Indians ...PCGS-65 ... $2250- s/s ... CAC pay $3000- 1-10 coins each " S/S means sight seen. So $750 extra and that is on the wholesale side. I dont have to wait for the shipping & the time it takes to look at the coins & the possibility that the coins are not up to the dealers liking quality wise. CAC matters whether you like it or not.
Might be unncessary for you, definitely unnecessary for me. But the simple fact that they are still in business, and that the business is growing, pretty much proves that there are more than enough people who like the service they provide. For what it's worth, back when CAC was announced, before they even opened their doors - I predicted the business would be a flop. I was wrong.
I strongly disagree with this logic. Prior to the inception of the TPG's, unscrupulous dealers would blatantly overgrade coins they sold and blatantly undergrade coins they bought. The TPG's leveled the playing field and paved the way for novice collectors to enter the market and spend their money without the fear of being ripped off. I submit that the money brought into the hobby because of the leveling of the playing field far outweighs the money paid to the TPG's to level the playing field. I can't prove it, so call it my theory. I can grade Jefferson Nickels as good if not better than a professional grader. But by your logic, I should never buy any other coin than a Jefferson Nickel. I can't grade Saint Gauden's Double Eagles and I doubt that simply looking at a few hundred coins will be a substitute for the expert opinions provided by the both the TPG and the CAC. Does that mean I should never buy an MS65 Saint for a type set? The plus designations used by the TPG's are for premium quality coins. They would represent the top end of the "A" coins described by CAC. The star designation employed by NGC relates solely to eye appeal and has nothing to do with the assigned numerical grade. In fact, my experience has shown me that most star coins are low end for the assigned grade because they have already received a grade bump due to the toning. People seem to bash the CAC at every opportunity. Yet these are the same people who condemn gradeflation and celebrate PQ coins. If we recognize that not all coins with an assigned grade are created equal, then why would we criticize a company whose sole purpose is to separate the dreck from the solid for the grade. I view the CAC as an insurance policy for high end coins. Just as I don't think that grading is worthwhile until a coin reaches the $200+ range, I don't think that CAC certification is worthwhile until the value spread between grades reaches the $200+ range. But IMO, the most valuable aspect of the CAC verification is it's effect on the liquidity of a coin sight unseen. I have had many experienced collectors tell me that the worst mistake a collector can make is to buy coins sight unseen including solely from online photos. My response was always that I don't have the opportunity to personally attend major shows limiting my buying ability to online. I was always greeted with the same advice: find a reputable dealer to view the coins for you and give their opinion for a small fee. Well you know what, that sounds a whole lot like what the CAC does to me. And instead of getting the opinion of a dealer, you get JA's opinion. I will take it. For those of you who appreciate anecdotes, here is mine relating to the CAC. In April, 2008, Heritage offered a 1942-P Jefferson War Nickel NGC PF66 CAMEO in their signature sale. 1942-P Jefferson Nickel NGC PF66 CAMEO The problem was that you could not tell from the photo if the CAMEO designation was warranted or not. I had been searching for a CAMEO war nickel for a while and was extremely interested in the coin. Without CAC verification, there was no possible way I could bid on a coin with a $2,000 spread between a war nickel with CAMEO and one without. As it was, the coin was verified by the CAC and I placed my bid and won the auction. Here is my photo of the coin. Since that day, I have been a supporter of the CAC!
Perfect example, and beautiful coin. As the values go up, and the offerings to buy are unseen (in person) other than online pics, the value of a FPG (4th party) goes up. Can't hurt; might help! Think of other significant purchases which you might want another professional to review: real estate immediately comes to mind. I don't own any coins for which the service is warranted, but I can certainly appreciate the value to others.
I don't buy many slabbed coins but I can understand their appeal. Let us see: Coins can be graded by experts on a 70 point scale. So far very sensible. CAC can determine, within each grade, if an MS 61 for a particular Standing Liberty Quarter is better than other MS 61 Standing Liberty Quarters. Not quite an MS 62, mind you, but pretty darn close. Close enough to pay money for a sticker. This gives me an idea. I am going to start a service confirming the CAC designation. My judgement will result in a rating of Favorable or Unfavorable (I will copyright my FU scale shortly) . I will call my service Can Really Appreciate the Profits (for me). Or, CRAP. My opinion of the CAC opinion of, for example, PCGS opinion ranges on a scale of minus infinity to positive infinity. An FU rating of + 11 makes the coin exponentially more valuable than a + 10. If any of you are interested in investing in this venture and sharing the profits, please contact me with how much you will pay for Class B shares. The stock certificates might have a CAC sticker.
But even when a coin is valued at $5,000 or $5,500. Most people are only going to offer you $2,000 for it anyways. Nobody will pay a fair price or retail anymore. IMHO Those days are long gone.
If you find a $5000 coin for $2000 it's going to be a real dog. Quality coins with a CAC sticker, still bring strong prices. Low end junk never has brought strong prices.
What I'm saying is that the coin is not a real dog, it is a coin valued at $5k+ with or without a CAC sticker. The problem I'm discussing is that the buyers out there don't offer fair value as if they're collectors appreciating what you have or what they should be offering. I believe that many of todays buyers have completely lost the art of fair negotiations. They don't care what you paid, what the coin is worth or what is the grade. They simply want to pay less than 1/2 its value so they can mark it up and sell for a profit. I also believe that these buyers think that all sellers are in need of quick cash and think you'll bend or even cave in when they make their offer. This type of buyer makes many sellers not even want to offer their coins for fair value on the open market.
Yes, not referring to this site, since I have not done any business on this site, but referring to OfferUp, Craigslist and "buyers" on this type of sites.
I price (Markup) my CAC coins based on the CAC bid in the Grey sheet. Many players seek out PQ non CAC coins off the bourse to get stickered where the CAC bid is considerably higher. MS 65 $20 Libs a case in point.
