Suspended or cancelled Presidential dollars

So are we to just take your word on this or can you link us to how you arrived at this conclusion. The studies I've seen show that the coin will save billions over a thirty year span.
Educate one of the ignorant half percenters.

 

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whatever the amount in the surplus is , they should still allow there to be some means for those who want the coins to be able to buy them at a reasonable price.

 

You accuse NOS of just having an opinion, with no link, and then you do the same exact thing.

LMAO.

 

Google "cost savings of dollar coins" , you'll get tons of good reading.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=cost%20savings%20of%20dollar%20coin&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CIsBEBYwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2Fblogs%2Fbusiness%2F2011%2F10%2Fcoins-could-replace-dollar-bills-save-us-5-6-billion%2F&ei=xsZfT5LyJcuKsAK72-mBCA&usg=AFQjCNHaEfsdlCy7GvY0rtRWiXrZaoU7wQ
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2-mBCA&usg=AFQjCNGljoikNudvo0JV2m4LeZo10uqyHQ
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11281.pdf

 

Apparently I'm an ignorant half percenter too. As are many others. That's about the first time I've seen an argument for paper dollars that's so enthusiastic. I mean, NOS, what's it matter that a paper dollar will circulate for 50+ months? A dollar coin will circulate for decades.

 

true...they just keep them and send them out randomly... today I went to the bank...and they have a 2000P $1 in its original tube, so I've got it with $220 halves

 

I think you are absolutely correct on that Doug. I haven't even seen a Saq. in circulation, although I did pick up a Susan today.

Dave

 

I have picked up some SACs in some CWR a few weeks ago. And usually can find a few stray SACs at the bank.

 

The GAO released a report on paper dollars and coin dollars last year. The GAO concluded that the cost to transition away from the paper dollar far outweighed any cost benefits that were previously thought to be extant. I will present some postings from Excelsior who has posted extensively on the issue on the wheres george forum. Excelsior is Numbers on this forum for those of you who don't know.

Apparently, it is common for coin dollar activists to have problems with basic English comprehension on more than one venue:
http://forums.wheresgeorge.com/showpost.php?p=4817089&postcount=166

Here is a more detailed analysis of the situation:
http://forums.wheresgeorge.com/showpost.php?p=4817266&postcount=173

There you have it, there is the proof that some of you were looking for from me. Excelsior is the paramount expert on economics and currency. Taken together, what Excelsior and I have said should be considered gospel.

Now, my definition of a "coin dollar activist" is that they don't necessarily have ties with the mining industry but still support the idea of discontinuing the paper dollar in place of having only a dollar coin available to use in circulation. It is ashame these activists don't want people to have the freedom of choice to choose which medium of currency they wish to use. How selfish and inconsiderate of them. Shame on them.

 

I've read (can't remember the source) that the United States still produced a dollar bill even after most other western countries have changed to coins based on a single paper lobby out of Georgia that produces the paper for the dollar bill. It all boils down to politics. Going to a coin just makes sense, especially now when people of my generation hardly use cash anymore. A unit of currency that lasts 1.5 years versus a unit of currency that lasts 30+ years... its a no brainer.

 

It is quite clear that you have read nothing in this thread. I can understand the frustration that Excelsior/Numbers has experienced in trying to reason with people who have such a mindset against the dollar bill. FYI, the dollar bill now lasts an average of more than 50 months due to improved scanning methods at FRB processing centers.

 

http://dollarcoinalliance.org/2012/02/press-release-government-accountability-office-again-advocates-transition-to-1-coin/

The above article has links to all of the GAO reports, including the newest reports that address questions that Senator Brown from MA (where Crane Paper Company is located) asked. If you read it, you will see that the GAO folks were flabbergasted by at least one of the questions (I’m not sure if they felt it was illogical, silly or irrational).

One of the most interesting things the pro-dollar bill forces have done to cling to the rag-dollar is the investment in millions of dollars of new equipment that is used to determine currency fitness at the Federal Reserve. Yes, the new goal is at least 50 months of life, up from the old 18 month life of a dollar bill. Of course, the impact to citizens and business of this new fitness standard is yet to be felt. You see, these old notes will be in much worse condition than before and the new equipment has just started to be used. You are not yet seeing 50 month old dollar bills, but you WILL. And they will be a massive problem for self-check stands, vending machines, and businesses that use currency counter and sorters. They will be rejected and jam in much greater numbers and the cost to the economy is going to be fantastic.

Imagine not being able to buy your lunch food from the vending machine in your lunch room because the machines keep rejecting your tattered old bills? How about not being able to pay for parking when you leave a garage with an automated pay station because it rejects your bills? Not being able to get your train or bus ticket/pass?

And, of course, the refusal to acknowledge that seigniorage is a real thing is one of the ways they pro-dollar bill folks attempt to discredit the GAO reports. Gee, who know the reality of the budget and the way the money supply works? The GAO or the pro-dollar bill people?

The Federal Reserve and the Crane Paper Company make a lot of profit from dollar bills at the taxpayers expense. The anti-dollar coin campaign is getting worse and the facts are being twisted and becoming outright lies. And the anti-dollar coin attack dogs are also engaging in personal attacks against anyone who dares to speak up in favor of the facts and the dollar coin.

Another argument for the dollar bill is that production of the paper at Crane Paper Company creates jobs. Let’s see….$146,000,000.00 per year savings for the taxpayers vs. how many jobs? Let’s say it is 200 jobs. That is $730,000.00 per job!! What an insane waste of taxpayer money! Yes, I know that the employees are not paid $730,000.00 salary, but the cost to the taxpayer to keep the dollar bill in production is that much.

And businesses have already testified that they would save money year round using dollar coins instead of dollar bills. It costs less to handle and process dollar coins than dollar bills. As with any other efficiency improvement, there will be some initial capital investment – such as buying new cassettes for automated change dispensers at checkstands – but those investments are always made and business does this because they know they will get a positive return on that initial investment. They will save time and money on each transaction and on handling the money in the cash room. AND I already mentioned the problems that will cost business money when the older dollar bills flood the money supply and rejection rates and jams increase.

 

Fred, please go back to your above message, click edit and increase the font size. It is so small that I had to increase my screen resolution just to be able to comfortably read what you stated. Excelsior/Numbers is the foremost economist and expert on currency. I take what he says above what most others have to say about the subject. This right here gives him alot more credibility than you or most anyone else. He has addressed what you have said about how currency will be nothing but rags with the new equipment. It is blatantly false and you fail to acknowledge his comments on the matter. The new equipment wont just reissue worn out raggedy notes, it has reduced the rate at which good notes are rejected by improved screening methods. In the past, notes that were not faced were rejected, notes that had a fold were rejected, etc. The machines are much more efficient at processing and scanning currency now than in the past. I have gone through alot of FRB straps this year and I feel the notes are in point of fact better condition than what I used to find in FRB straps from a few years ago.

I wonder how much businesses really want dollar coins like you suggest when they have to pay transportation costs to have boxes of coins delivered or ordered at banks. Like I said, coins are heavy. If you were involved in the transportation of coins and currency which would cost more in fuel? A $1,000 box of dollar coins or a $1,000 bag of 10 straps of $1 notes? I would like an honest yes/no answer on these two questions either from you or another dollar-coin only proponent.

 

You are correct; I didn't see that there was a second page. My bad.

 

Font increased.

I trust GAO over Excelsior and i've read all of what they have said/written. You disagree. Oh well.

The worn notes issue is still evolving. If I am wrong, good for you. If I am correct - or even partially correct - bad for the business and consumers. I have gotten FRB bundles of circulated Twos that are obviously using the new equipment as they are a mix of face directions. The quality of some is hideous, but as someone who knows science i also know that I do not have a big enough sample over a long enough time to make any valid conclusion. I will continue to observe and I will see. The biggest users of ones will see results first and those are unsually big businesses that have bundles of ones delivered. Again, this will evolve over time as we move to 50 months.

Coin delivery will vary. At banks, they pay for a truck delivery and it does not matter what is on the truck. They only pay more to have a special/additional armored car delivery outside of their normally scheduled delivery. Businesses probably do the same thing, but they do indeed pay some fee for the coins and currency they order - based on the number of boxes or bundles. They also recycle coins within businesses. I talked at length with a coworker (who took calculus from Jaime Escalante) who worked at Home Depot in the cash room while working through school. She told me they had machines to sort, count and roll the coins so they could re-use them. They used the rolled coin to redistribute to cash registers as needed and during set-up at the beginning of a shft. The only coins they had to order were to replace any difference between what came in and what went out. In an economy that has no dollar bill, people will actually USE the dollar coin for transactions and businesses will not have to order many. Since I am not involved in the transportation of coins or bills commercially, I have no data on the fuel costs. As a science and fact based person and as someone very familiar with cargo aircraft, I would ask "what is the weight of the unloaded armored car and what is it's cargo capacity in weight and will dollar coins really affect the overall gross weight by any significant percentage?" And will that exceed $140,000,000.00 ???

 

Excelsior is a "self appointed" paramount expert who also has a vested interest in keeping the dollar bill by contributing to the Where's George website. Anything he says or interprets from the GAO Report, snippets and all, is directly related to the ciontinuance of that website and the tracking of one dollar notes.

The bottom line, it costs 6.5 cents to produce a bill which needs to be replaced in 3 years. Cost = 65 cents
A dollar coin costs .30.5 cents to produce yet could last 15 to 25 times longer than a dollar bill. Cost = 60 cents times 75 years (25 times "longer")

Seigniorage valuation is a moot point since its basic definition is the cost to produce the coin vs its actual value. I suppose if you're an accountant, the term has value according to profit but the reality is the government profits by .69 cents per coin. Given the fact that coins last longer than bills, the profit (seigniorage) is reduced over the life of the coin since more bills need to be produced over 30 years than coin. Thus, the seigniorage value drops. But again, it's moot.

I read in the GAO that, yes, there will be startup costs in order to increase production but to impy that there is a net loss of 3.5 billion dollars is simply nit-picking the report to support one's own opinion by manipulating numbers. Excelsior himself states: "(These last two numbers conspicuously do *not* appear in the GAO report, but they can be calculated from the table on page 32 by deleting the entries regarding "interest payments".) " In other words In other words, modify the report to suit one's needs.

Will the costs of materials needed increase? Of course they will. Everything goes up in cost! This also includes the price to produce one dollar bills which the paper folks conveniently forget to mention.

Will there be problems encountered? Of course there will. There's problems encountered with everything the government does!

However, the United States of America is the LAST industrialized nation to convert from paper to coins. None of those other countries are reporting significant show-stopping problems with producing coins. Their savings have been well documented or else they'd swith back. And that is a fact. The last time I checked, the folks in those other countries were not affected by the transistion. They've actually embraced the transistion and daily commerce moves smoothly!

The problem with this country is the constant nit-picking about how this is going to happen or thats going to happen. It's why NOTHING gets accomplished.

Of course, the paper folks are certainly welcome to their opinions, but when the opinions are based upon the distortion of reality to meet one's own financial needs, then, due to the democratic process and the general ignorance of the common man with regard to the monetary system, good economic actions get stalled to the point of ridiculousness!

People "choose" dollar bills over dollar coins. Heck, even I do. Why? Because merchants simply do not order dollar coins to give out in change. Thats really a simple concept. However, if the dollar bill were discontinued, do folks really believe that customers would "refuse" a dollar coin? Heck no! I didn't refuse pound coins or two pound coins when I was in England! It's money man! It spends!

Are dollar bills more expensive to procure! Of course they are! Why would anybody think they weren't? They're heavier, bulkier, require rolling and storage space! BUT, given the inventiveness of the economic community, I see these costs actually decreasing over time as more and more inventive methods of transporting these coins get implemented. Besides, money management costs are fully deductible as the "cost of doing business" so there won't be a big loss on that front.

Once the coin becomes the only form of payment for the one dollar denomination, folks will accept it. We're like that you know!

 

Excelsior is not Hank. Hank owns the Where's George website, not Excelsior.

And there is no seiniorage for federal reserve notes because they are notes. They actually cost taxpayers money because of the interest cost of issuing a note instead of a 'dollar'. A coin is a 'dollar' as soon as it it's manufacturing is complete.

If you correct that WG ownership error, the rest of your post is "spot on".

 

What difference does the 18 vs. 50 month survival time matter...it's still far less than a coin. You have said nothing in this thread that has any proof to your claim that switching to the coin will yield a net loss to tax payers. I don't believe you have because I don't believe the evidence exists.

The problem with the dollar coin is that people simply don't want to use them. The only way they would become well used is if the dollar bill was discontinued and law makers won't do that. The public won't like it and they won't get reelected.

Dollar coins are simply less convenient that bills, I think most people would agree with that...and it's certainly how I feel. I don't like using the coin even though I believe it is better for the economy. I also believe that we will continue to produce the bill and make occasional attempts to circulate a coin for the foreseeable future. Frankly, this issue will probably never be solved but it is self limiting. Everyday the world becomes more and more electronic and I think that in my lifetime physical money will be obsolete. That and only that will finally solve this.

 

Indeed you can cherrypick things from the GAO report to support this or that point, most of which are hypotheticals and estimates. The one thing about the report that is fact is this:
In 1985, for example, the Canadian House of Commons estimated that the
conversion to a $1 coin would save the government $175 million
(Canadian) in total over 20 years because it would no longer have to
regularly replace worn out $1 notes. Canadian officials later determined
that the Canadian government saved $450 million (Canadian) between
1987 and 1991
And NOS, please stop assigning agendas to posters. You don't have a clue. Did you ever think that perhaps some of us just simply don't like paying more in taxes than what's necessary?