I think I mentioned before that I always wanted a bust coin since I started collecting. What kept me away was expensive slabbed ones and ugly raw ones, at least within my budget. Went to my coin dealer today to return a bad coin... and I was looking through his bust coins and most if not all were cleaned. I did buy two. I mentioned yesterday his shop isn't exactly well lit and seeing hairlines is just about impossible. So I bought a small keychain sized uv light and used that, it definitely brought out another side to the coins which I typically had to wait until I got home to see (when I photographed). When I was browsing through eBay most bust coins seemed to have suffered the same fate. Are these treated differently by collectors because the population is so low? Today I purchased two for $125. Basically buying them for G grade after pointing out that both were cleaned. However, one would check out f Details, conservatively, and the other maybe even vf Details. I bought them because they're basically going to go in my album and not budge for many years, unless I can 'afford' to replace them with something very nice and graded. So, to reiterate my question, are these much older and more scarce bust coins not... what's the word.. scrutinized as harshly for their 'problems' due to low populations? Only 2500 estimated for the 1811 Small 8 for example.
For $125, I'd say you did well. Both coins, as you've stated, appear to have been cleaned however many years ago, but have developed a patina that'd probably pass at some TPGs. Both coins, IMO, are VF examples. The 1811's reverse weakness, which may resemble circulation wear to an unexperienced eye, is due to crude striking methods. Weakness in these areas (eagle's right wing, "E PLURIBUS", "50C.", etc) is typical. The screw press didn't allow for quality strikes as you see on modern coinage. As for your question regarding the "scrutinization" of this series, if I'm understanding you correctly, I don't believe TPGs take a coin's population into consideration when grading. They should grade a 1817/4 just as they would an 1832. -Brian
I was actually referring to collectors being less strict with the series. I see a lot of cleaned examples selling/sold for book/higher. That's why I proposed the question. I do appreciate the reply, thanks for your knowledge.
I was actually referring to most of them. At least with the small 8 variety, they typically go for the book price. Still, that's beside the point. I was asking if buyers aren't as concerned with these coins being cleaned due to them being more scarce and just used that as an example.
Not necessarily. Collectors still search for original examples... One reason why you'll see some varieties on online auction websites go for big $$$. If your question is, "Will they just settle for a cleaned coin because they can't find one with original surfaces", the answer is "No". Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm having trouble understand exactly what you're asking. -Brian
Yeah that was more or less it. Only asked because that was what I was seeing online in realized auctions. not that I am going to sell ans flip, there's no way, ill continue saving and try to buy graded examples. For now, for the price, im content.
The fact of the matter is, most capped bust halves have been cleaned at some time. If you want to put together a set of original surface pieces, you'll never accomplish the goal. So, yes, collectors will, and have to settle for cleaned examples if they wish to collect this series to any degree. Guy
You are correct. The TPGs do make allowances for these older coins that they would never make for other coins. In other words, they cut them more slack. It is true that some of these coins are known for being weakly struck. But too many people, including the TPGs make use of that excuse when grading these coins when they should not be using that excuse. You see, you can tell the difference between a weak strike and wear. So just because one of the coins has a flat spot or a break in the luster, that does not mean that that flat or break in the luster is because of a weak strike. A whole lot of the time it IS due to wear. You are correct that they do not take the population into consideration. But they do not grade them all by the same rules either. Just like with any coin, allowances are made for specific dates that are known to have been weakly struck. Or more weakly struck than other dates. Not all dates and varieties were weakly struck. Some of them are known for having pretty good strikes. And those known to have been weakly struck are graded differently than those which are known for being well struck, or better struck. And there is something that most seem to forget about these coins. Many of them had huge, for the time, mintage numbers. Even the 1807 had a mintage over 750,000. Quite a few of them run into the millions. And few really have any concept of the population numbers of these coins. I did a study on them almost 10 years ago. Even back then NGC and PCGS alone had graded over 26,000 of them as AU or better. So many of these survive in much larger numbers and higher grades than anybody would expect.
Couldn't disagree more... It is entirely possible to complete a set of original CBHs. All it takes is patience. If you're experienced enough to be able to distinguish a coin with original surfaces from a problem coin, you should have no trouble finding quality, original examples. Like Doug said, the mintages for the series are extremely high compared to the prior coinage (Draped Bust design), so one can only assume that many have been preserved. -Brian
Many of these survived in very nice shape. CBH's weren't circulated much. As the largest denomination minted, they were typically bagged and moved from bank to bank. How nice for today's collectors. Surely original, unspoiled examples can be found. But plenty of older coins have been cleaned along the way. Sometimes it's obvious due to hairlines, or the lack of crud in protected areas. A dip is usually evident. Other times it's just a matter of conjecture. Lance.
Ok, fair enough. I'll put it this way then. Nobody has put together a set of original surface (uncleaned) capped bust halves so far. Not even the Meyer collection accomplished this. It may be possible. I can't wait to see someone do so. Guy
I'm sure there are plenty of no-name, low-grade sets with original surfaces. Probably not so for the finest sets, I'll grant you that. Lance.
No, there were no dollars minted after 1803 until 1836. Which went from the Draped Bust design to the Seated design.
Correct. I'd have said the same, but I didn't want to :dead-horse:, ya know? Hahahaha. As this is the sort of set I'm striving to acheive (original circ), I'll do my best to prove whomever disagrees wrong. -Brian
I think that most numismatists would agree that there are far more of the Bust Halves that still exists have been harshly cleaned at some point in their life than there are those that have not been harshly cleaned. Think about it, it was what just about all collectors did for 150 years. Are there original coins out there ? Sure you bet. The question is how many ?
