How the heck is this coin an MS-63 ?!?

Tough call. Even you Doug have pointed out the line between damaged and not is not set in stone. I do not find the marks QUITE rising to the point of damage, so therefor think the grade should have reflected a BU coin with too many bag marks. In the past it would have been a 60 easy, but since I hear they don't even use that grade anymore a 61 I suppose. What would be seen as wear on the highpoints to me looks like damage from scraping against other coins. Of course, its impossible to say without the coin in hand, (for me anyways).

Calling this coin a 63, which used to mean "above average eye appeal", just makes me a little sadder on the state of things. The person who bought this as a 63 deserves the purchase. I don't fault the seller on iota.

Chris

Btw I am not saying someone who thinks this is a damaged coin is wrong either, just my view. Its very much a matter of opinion. If you wanted to call this 63 damaged, or 60/61, either way would be justifiable. I bet NGC would like this coin back, though.

 

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63 is "above average eye appeal"? How interesting when 65 is only "average or better". From the PCGS glossary;

BTW, here is 63;

 

I guess they changed them. Doesn't surprise me. They used to say a 63 was an above average coin and the majority of coins submitted would not grade 63. Any others remember this definition from the late 80's/early 1990's? 65 used to be a superlative coin, a grade many dates would not have a specimen of, and anything above 65 was worthy of a news report.

Boy how times have changed. Doesn't surprise you, though, when the graders are the same ones who define the grade. Take the OP coin. What guarantee is there its NOT a 63? None, since the TPG can simply say that we think its a 63, we set the rules of grades, so therefor whatever is on the slab is correct. This is why grading a coin while NOT using ANA standards but letting the grading companies define their own grades basically is meaningless. If the TPG said they will grade according to a third party, (ANA) standards, then the grades would have more validity in my eyes.

Chris

 

Another Italian gold coin slabbed as MS63 that's rare enough for the grade to make a huge difference, unlike an 1882 Italian 20 Lire where the grade is essentially meaningless in any case. Note how much cleaner the fields are.

 

If I am wrong I will of course retract what I said. Maybe my memory was wrong Rlm. Sorry. I just remembered, (perhaps wrongly), that the 63 was designated by TPG as above average, and the 65 the "gem". This was why both grades had such price breaks at them. Yes I know later when Wall Street got involved it accentuated the 65 pricing, but even before then achieving a 63 or a 65 meant something. A 64 was nothing special, simply a little better 64, (or a "near" 65 depending on the salesman. ).

Anyway, that is how I remembered the pricing situation from numerous CoinWorld articles, etc. Again if I am remembering incorrectly I apologize.

Chris

 

There used to be a short-hand used in advertising that only had 4 grades of BU. It was later described by the publisher of Numismatic News on page 3 in tiny type of each issue as something like this, --and this is from memory so I might have it wrong-- but as I remember it, it went something like this:

SELECT UNCIRCULATED = MS60/61
CHOICE UNCIRCULATED = MS62/63
GEM UNCIRCULATED = MS64/65
SUPERB UNCIRCULATED = MS66 and above.

Of course 4 grades of uncirculated, as handy as it might have been, could never stand a chance against a system with essentially 33 grades of mint state including + marks, stars, and two grades (60, 70) ending with a 0.

 

I always thought MS 60/61 was just plain uncirculated. If an MS-60 coin is "select" UNC, what is normal UNC? An AU-58? Lol

So far his thread is turning out to be much more interesting and informative than I imagined. Thanks fellas. =)

 

Doug, would this be all about MONEY ? If the coin does not get slabbed, isn't the cost just mailing fees ? If this is so, I would think that the grading companies would slab just about anything, just to make a buck.

 

They would make the same money by slabbing it with a details grade.

 

Kind of like meat. Select is not the cut you would select if there were other nicer cuts to select from! Most would go for Choice or Prime.

 

That's an interesting way of putting it. Funny how the same applies for slabs of meat as does for slabs with coins. =)

 

Just for your information, the star as assigned by NGC is not a "grade" modifier. It is a descriptor for the eye appeal. It means nothing and implies nothing about whether the coin is high or low for the assigned numerical grade. For proof coins, it can mean that one side of the coin exhibits cameo or ultra cameo, but not both sides. For non-proof coins it usually means that a coin has attractive toning or superb and unusually high luster. So to repeat, the star has nothing to do with technical grade. It only has to do with subjective "eye appeal".

The "+" on the other hand implies that the coin just misses the next higher grade, or is particularly high for the assigned grade. Thus, the "+" is a modifier of the technical grade of a coin (for both PCGS and NGC).

 

If it has nothing to do with grade, why is it part of the grade on the label? Afraid you're mistaken on that, it is every bit as much a part of the grade as the rest of the numerals and mathmatic symbols, just as by extension, a coin with the star would necessarily be perceived as being more valuable than one without it. If it's not part of the grade, then the presence or abscence of one shouldn't affect the value of the coin, and if it didn't affect the value of the coin they wouldn't bother putting one in the grade to begin with.

 

I always thought 63 was choice, 65 gem, and 67 superb. Select and the like were simply sales puffery, as well as any words besides these which were defined. You could go lower, calling a 66 gem, but never higher.

I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

 

Figures lie and liars figure.
I figure the rarest slabbed coins are MS-60's, for all issues.
That is a glaring fault of the TPG's and shows their desire to make money
rather than provide 'objective' grades.

DISCLAIMER: When I examine the photos of the coin in its slab,
I notice that this example may have superior eye appeal in hand,
perhaps even under a glass.

I don't see any scratches on the slab though there may be some.

Pictures may be deceiving but are sometimes worth 10,000 words.

 

The "grading line" of the slab includes lots of other information other than the technical grade of a coin.

Firstly, it includes information about the method by which the coin was minted (i.e., PF, MS, SP, etc).

Secondly, it includes information related to the technical grade as determined by wear, nicks, marks, strike etc. (a numerical grade between 1-70). After the numerical grade, there is now an optional modifier denoting that a coin just misses the next higher grade, or the "+". This means that the coin is almost technically one grade higher than that assigned.

Thirdly, the grading line can (for NGC graded coins) include a possible ★ to denote a subjective issue of "exceptional eye appeal". As I previously stated, this ★ has no implication to and does not modify in any way the technical grade, and the ★ can be applied to coins both "high-end" for the assigned grade and "low-end" for the assigned grade. PCGS does not have such a designation.

Fourth, for copper, the "grading line" also includes a notation of the color of the copper in the oxidation process (RD, RB, or BN; Red, red/brown, brown).

Lastly, there is the possibility for surface condition or metal-condition modifiers. These include (for proofs) Cameo and Ultra Cameo (noted for coins with frosty devices set apart from glassy fields), and for non-proof coins designations for PL (prooflike) or DPL (deep prooflike) surfaces. PL and DPL are most often assigned to Morgan Dollars, and are usually assigned for characteristics that resemble CAM and DCAM proof strikes. When PL and DPL are assigned to other (non-Morgan) coins by NGC the coins usually have glassy fields and die polish lines, but the frosty devices are not required.

I hope that helps explain a bit better.

 

My 2cents

Pcgs&Ngc if it one you submitted on your free join package Pcgs auto grades them. I have seen that happen more 1 time.
Pcgs Italy& Italian gold coins are one the few the very hard to get above a MS-64 1900's gold coinage Why I do not know. but they grade 3 side of a coin 1 of the 3 could have been what hit the grade.