pcgs grading standards in theory and practice ...

pcgs' criteria seem to consistently enable me to grade coins higher than pcgs grades them. http://www.pcgs.com/grades.html

i submitted three remarkable toned morgan dollars for grading (and unfortunately the photos i tried to take were hopeless (considering my lousy camera and the slab)) and one came back as MS63 and two MS 64 - however, each of the coins i submitted was, in my opinion above that grade as provided by pcgs, and well into the next grade:

[TABLE="class: servicetable, width: 758"]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-63[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-63+[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Average number of marks/hairlines, strike will be close to average. Good eye appeal for grade.[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-64[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Few marks/hairlines or a couple of severe ones, strike should be average or above[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-64+[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Very few marks/hairlines or a couple of heavier ones, strike should be average or above. Superior eye appeal.[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-65[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-65+[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Very minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike and eye appeal[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-66[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]MS/PR-66+[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1F6FA"]Very few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, very good strike with superior eye appeal[/TD]

[/TABLE]
it is not that i don't see some sense in pcgs' gradings but it does seem to be on a different standard than the one they publish ... does anyone else think that?

i ordered a memory card and adapter that will hopefully be compatible with my better camera, and will hopefully provide photos maybe even later today or tuesday.

 

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I have yet to see ANY published standards for the grading of uncirculated and Proof coins, which allow anyone to be able to distinguish between 2 (and in in some cases, more than 2) different grades. That is because they necessarily contain too much ambiguity and subjectivity in their language.

As an example, taking the first grade in the post above:
"MS/PR-63 Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full"

How many marks/hairlines is "moderate"? What size marks/hairlines is "moderate"? What constitutes a "full" strike?

 

Based on the PCGS criteria what do you think these two graded at?

Here's a couple of PCGS slabbed dollars I picked up, both are MS state. See what you think they graded them at and see if you think they meet or exceed the PCGS grading descriptions. The reverse is the 1880s I didn't have a picture of the 79 reverse. I'll repost the grades in a day or two.

 

Unfortunately, those images don't begin to allow for a good enough look at the coins' surfaces to provide an educated and meaningful grade guess. Sorry.

 

All TPG grades are OPINIONS.
Different graders can have different opinions.
Even the same grader can have different opinions on different days.
I personally will not do business with PCGS, as I feel their grading is too arbitrary (among other reasons), and I get my grading done by NGC.
However, others swear by PCGS grading.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

as the uneducated OP, i'll take a guess - the surfaces are not perfect, particularly the '79 which has substantial marking below liberty's chin. fools rush where experts fear to tread, but i'd say the '79 is MS64 and the '80 is MS65 and that pcgs graded them as MS63 and MS64, respectively.

 

One way to analyze grading standards is check out the auction sites with high resolution photography, like Heritage, Teletrade and Great Collections. There you can do side by side analysis of various coins and see whether you agree, with all types of coins and grading services. As long as the coin passes the initial muster of separating problem coins from potential grading, it may get a better grade than it deserves for many reasons. Sometimes that decision is a hairline difference. In my experience PCGS AU58s are true 58s, high end.

MS63 coins should look MS65, gem, at first glance, then be seen as undeserving of more than 63 upon closer inspection. I have seen Mike Fuljiens in his literature call MS64 "gem", which I thought was reserved for MS65 and above. Is this false?

I would say look at the official ANA grading standards and see if there is any difference to PCGS' standards. Both NGC and PCGS have "grading sets", ie groups of coins that exemplify all the significant grades, with actual Morgan Dollars.

 

Hard to tell like Mark, Poindexter, said. Could be PL or DMPL.

 

thanks for the consideration but they appear beneath the heading
[h=3]PCGS Grading Standards[/h]at http://www.pcgs.com/grades.html so i do understand they are generalized examples, pcgs itself lists it as their standards which i don't think i'm mistaken to understand as criteria, conditions, thresholds.

owie's comments led me to check out some ANA "standards" which seem more exacting and higher ...
The numerical grades, along with their prevailing adjectival grades and descriptions, are as follows:

MS-63 (choice uncirculated): choice quality specimens with minimal weaknesses or blemish readily evident.

MS-64: choice quality specimens with eye appeal and only the smallest distracting weakness, blemish or bag marks.

MS-65 (gem uncirculated): sharply struck, hairline-free coins with full luster and no distracting blemishes.

MS-67: described as “gem” according to official ANA criteria, it is not presently associated with an adjectival equivalent. There is also not a consensus description that is associated with this grade.

copied from http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=21570

owie pointed to some sites to check side-by-side comparisons, i'll do that within a week, thanks!