1965 SMS Half. Cameo?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Cazkaboom, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    Hey guys, I am wondering if my 1965 SMS half would grade with that "MS Cameo" label? I want to know what a TPG's standard on SMS cameo is and if this one meets the requirements. Also, would it be worth submitting?
    Here's a video link:


    [video=youtube;DDCSAIqsCIQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDCSAIqsCIQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]


    Thanks in advance,

    ~Cannyn
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 1, 2012
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    A couple of things here. While videos work well for trying to show the luster on a coin, they really don't work very well when trying to show cameo. Because of that, I don't think anybody can say if your coin is cameo or not. Pictures would be your best bet for that.

    The way you determine if a coin is cameo or deep cameo is by the amount of frost on the devices and the mirror finish of the fields. The frost is the more important of the two. It is also the least likely to be found. And it is a subjective call, there really is no way to measure it, you just have to know it when you see it. But for a coin to be considered cameo the frost has to be there on all of the devices, legends and numerals. In other words any raised part of the coin must have frost. If any portion of them are reflective (not frosted) then the coin is not cameo.

    Determining if a coin is Deep Cameo is a bit more difficult for to do that you have to consider the degree, the thickness if you will, of the frost. Again it is something that you just have to know when you see it. The best way I can explain it is like this. Frost on a coin is much like frost that we see in everyday life, like frost on the grass or frost on your windshield on a cold day. Pretty much everybody knows the difference between a light frost and a heavy frost. Sometimes you can scrape it off your windshield easily - that's a light frost. Other times you have to really work at it - that's a heavy frost.

    Well, cameo and deep cameo is very similar. With a cameo coin the frost appears to be thin, almost like you can see through it in some places but not quite. Deep cameo is thick and uniform over all of the raised portions of the coin. A deep cameo coin will resemble a Proof in that regard.

    And both a cameo and deep cameo will show marked contrast when tilted just so in the light. The coin will appear to be black and white, with the mirrored fields being black and the raised devices being white. And again it is a matter of degree, a cameo will show moderate contrast while a deep cameo will show extreme contrast.

    Secondly, you're mixing things up a bit. You cannot determine cameo by measuring reflectivity. You only measure refectivity when you are trying to determine if a business strike coin is PL or DMPL.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 1, 2012
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  4. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    Thanks, I was confused by some of my research. I'll give it another look.
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 1, 2012
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  5. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    Let's give it another try...

    Okay, so I finally tried to get photos of them, but the photo quality is bad, so I decided to scan them too.

    I gotta say, this is the HARDEST coin for me to photograph. EVER. :mad:
    that hard to photograph set-horz.jpg
    _DSC3397.jpg
    _DSC3465.jpg
    _DSC3520.jpg
    _DSC3521.jpg
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 3, 2012
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  6. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    And some of the reverse:
    _DSC3510.jpg
    _DSC3494.jpg
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 3, 2012
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  7. thecoinczar

    thecoinczar Member

    Well said and written GDJMSP. I found it to be quite confusing when I first started out and I wish I would have read your blog on Cameo vs. Ultra Cameo at that time. I am in agreement with you as to when you see a cameo or ultra cameo coin with frosty devices and black mirrored fields that jump out at you. Identifying these coins through their attributes get easier and easier the more exposure one gets with these beauties. It just takes time and a lot of patience and study!
     
    thecoinczar, Jan 3, 2012
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  8. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    Your video is a lot better than your photography.

    1965 Obv.jpg 1965 Rev.jpg


    I think your coin has an excellent chance of going Cameo. Below is my MS67CAM although I believe that today they grade them all SP.

    Kennedy 1965 SMS 14967541 PCGS MS67CAM CoinAD.jpg


    If only the the fields had been a little darker!
     
    19Lyds, Jan 3, 2012
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  9. silverfool

    silverfool Active Member

    it is hard from video or pics to tell. the reverse looked cameo to me. the standards for cameo on those coins are less strict than with newer issues. I had a silver '76 that was pcgs 69 ultra cam that was nowhere what the new issues show for contrast. but that's as it should be. back then cameos were by accident, now they are created with the finish on the dies on purpose. try to find coins from back then that are graded cameo and compare.
     
    silverfool, Jan 3, 2012
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  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Pretty much everybody has that problem with them. But there's a simple trick to getting good pics of a cameo. All you need is half a sheet of plain white paper.

    Take a sheet of copy/typing paper, cut it in half. Roll the half sheet into a cylinder about 3-4 inches across and tape it so it stays. Set up your lights and camera, put the coin on whatever you normally put it on. Then set the cylinder of paper over top the coin, with the coin in the center. Then take your pic while the camera looks down through the tube at the coin.

    It has something to do with the way the paper diffuses the light, but it works.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 3, 2012
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  11. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    View attachment 153787 View attachment 153786


    Sadly it was, using an $800 camera to shoot bad photos and a $40 camera to shoot the video... :confused:
    thanks for the opinion.
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 3, 2012
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  12. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    Thanks Doug, I'll have to try that.
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 3, 2012
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  13. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    my question is this:

    Is it worth it to get a 65 half graded? Does the SMS Cameo designation make enough difference to pay for the certification?
     
    mikenoodle, Jan 3, 2012
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  14. d.t.menace

    d.t.menace Member

    If you get a 67CAM or better it's well worth it. If it's a UCAM you're sitting very pretty.
     
    d.t.menace, Jan 3, 2012
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  15. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    hmmmm

    that gives me pause... I have a 65 SMS that I bought solely because it had a cameo Kennedy Half in it. I was working the table at a show and we took it in. I said, "Hey, look!" the reply I got was, "yeah, a cameo Kennedy, so what?" I quickly asked if I could buy the set and he sold it to me for $4. I'm thinking I need to look at that half better and see if it's worth having it graded and selling it
     
    mikenoodle, Jan 3, 2012
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  16. Cazkaboom

    Cazkaboom One for all, all for me.

    Okay, here's the shots of what I see
    Just some quick shots with my cheap camera.
    By the way, Thanks for the help Doug. :thumb:
    129_8432.jpg 129_8437.jpg
     
    Cazkaboom, Jan 3, 2012
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  17. cremebrule

    cremebrule Active Member

    That looks like a cameo coin. Nice!
     
    cremebrule, Jan 3, 2012
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  18. khay

    khay New Member

    Lol! I feel your pain :) I use a $700 camera to take my pictures, and while I can USUALLY get enough detail and a clear enough shot to show what I am trying to, some things just WILL NOT show up in the pictures! Clear as day, with coin in hand, but absolutely will not come through in the pictures!!! Lol.

    Very nice '65, by the way! It is so hard to find nice looking 65-69 kennedys. Granted, yours is from a set rather than circulation... :p but still. I so rarely see anything with that date that I enjoy looking at, so good job :)
     
    khay, Jan 4, 2012
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  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Deep Cameo ? Never.

    Cameo ? Maybe, but I doubt it. Frost looks too thin in a couple of places.
     
    GDJMSP, Jan 4, 2012
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  20. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    Hairlines - Frost - Contrast

    A 1965 67DCAM Kennedy would be a major score and as cheap as it is to submit moderns, I'd submit your coin in a heartbeat! Even if it only scored a CAM designation, its worth the price of submission IMO.
     
    19Lyds, Jan 4, 2012
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  21. fusiafinch

    fusiafinch Member

    I think it's worth sending to NGC or PCGS for certification. That's the only way to get money for this coin in cameo anyway. At the very least, you'll have a nice certified coin.
     
    fusiafinch, Jan 4, 2012
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