Good business or scammer?

I am confused by the second to last sentence in the first paragraph of the original post. Maybe that is a hypothetical? TC

 

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If the intent is as you describe, then I'd put this guy into the scammer bucket. Buying a coin and then receiving the coin as described, only to return it "because it is as described" and not better than described is burden to the 'bay seller and buyer community. I've run into this before, where I felt a coin was properly described, and it was returned because my pic was off a bit. I simply banned the bidder from my auctions, no big deal to me because I'm not into selling for profit so banning bidders who are problematic is a non-issue to me even it costs me a bit. That said, I've also agreed with buyers before in that my auction did not do a good job at fully describing and illustrating a coin and gladly accepted a return and did not put the buyer on my non-bidder list. I've only had 2 or 3 returns in my 'bay life, so the sample size is very small.....

If the guy is that bad eventually he'll find himself excluded from a lot of seller's auctions.

 

Most online retailers allow no-hassle returns. I don't see why it would be any different for coin dealers who have clearly stated they allow returns.

If you make a habit returning coins it does start to become abusive. A better approach would be to make detailed inquiries about the coin and ask for additional photos before bidding.

 

Would this include say, someone buying 1000 mint sets from the mint and cherrying them for 70s and then returning 950 of them that didn't cut it. The mint does have a return policy and you would be within your rights doing it. It's just that the cost of returns get passed on to others while you are making profits on other peoples back. Unethical? Scamming? I don't know but it doesn't seem right.

 

According to the OP; however, the person in question is buying raw, ungraded coins.

Now let's say you and I are looking at a group of Morgans that have all the devices needed to be uncirculated.

You feel the average grade is 63.

I, on the other hand may feel the average grade is 64.

Who's to say which one of us is correct on grade?

It's all based on our opinion, much like what people pay a TPG for, opinion.

 

Seems like they are taking advantage of the protection that ebay puts in place for buyers. Not exactly a "scammer" buyer, but still very unfair to the sellers. I would be fairly angry if I sold a coin & it was returned, only later to find out that this was the buyers routine with coins.

 

This is NOT extreme. Some people actually used to do this with proof sets, sometimes going as far as to opening the sets and switching the coins around to build "70" sets before sending the rest back to the mint. And the shipping didn't cost them because at the time the mint would either send return postage labels, or reimburse for return postage. Some people would cherry the first batch send the rejects back for replacement, cherry those, and keep repeating the cycle until they had all top grade coins with the mint paying the postage multiple times both ways.

 

Mate, I must say that I for one do disagree...

In my personal opinion, if a buyer buys a coin and thinks it is a variety or graded lower than it should be, whilst the seller has described it correctly, and then the buyer gets said coin and realises that they themselves were wrong, why should the seller have to refund the money for the buyers mistake and poor judgement?
I think that once the deal is done, and the item was/is accuretly described, the buyer should suck up his/her own mistake, it's not the sellers fault. The buyer should then sell the coin themselves or keep it as a reminder to never assume too much!.
It really is rubbish that paypals buyer protection protects everyone but the seller. I think it is ludicrus that people would do this kind of thing with intent.
Once, I brought a 1920 London penny that I stupidly thought was an unbelieveably rare variety (dot above lower scroll) and payed 5 times the going cost of what the coin actually was described as (a dot below lower scroll). But it was described accuretly as a dot below. So morally, I had no leg to stand on. So I sucked it up and held onto the coin, infact I still have it now. Not once for even a second did I think about forcing a refund for my own poor judgement. That would be extremely unethical.
If the coin/note/anything is described correctly then there should be no reason to ask for a refund, unless it comes in damaged or what-not. But if someone wants to be a twat and do something like that, they are completely unethical in my book. I would block any buyer that did that to me, within a heartbeat.

Also, if there are good pictures in the description, it is not sight unseen. Because you just couldn't guess it would be a grade or two higher if you had not seen the coin in the pictures.

Just my opinion, take it for what it is. :smile

- Simon

 

I have to agree.

Ebay protects the buyer to a fault in my opinion! There is always a loophole for these types of people.

When I sell on Ebay, which is not often, I always check the feedback of the buyer which is not that great as Ebay doesn't allow negative feedback for a buyer any longer. Just insipid!!!

But still I can contact other sellers to get a good idea of who I am dealing with.

 

Good points Simon!

I have eaten a few coins in my day simply because of my misjudgments. No problem! Live and LEARN! It was a cheap education!

Like you I still have those coins and I honestly don't know of any valid numismatist that haven't paid the stupid tax down the road of experience.

Good post!

 

Thankyou Bisquitlips,

"The stupid tax" I must say, I like that expression, and will probably plagiarize it in the future

It is good to keep those mistakes and everytime you look at them, you realise that you have to look closer or be more sure before taking the plunge.
Like marriage, I guess... Know what you are getting into before you do it, or you will be sore afterwards. Some people jump too quickly and pay for it with half their stuff, and some sit back and wait. Not that it is an exact science, but you have to live and learn.

I say this, and I just got married in November... But I waited 6 years to marry my loverly. I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing first

 

That's not what's happening, however.

The buyer is buying coins thinking, and hoping, they are undergraded by the seller, based on the seller's photos and description, and will come in at a higher grade from a TPG.

Once he, and a dealer examine the coins and determine they are higher than the seller anticipated, he keeps those coins and submits them to a TPG. The coins he returns to the sellers are coins that are at, or even below what the seller thought on grade, and believes they will not grade higher than the seller believed them to be.

 

Mate, that is fair enough if the seller has overgraded the coin in the description and taken shonky pictures with intent to rip someone off. Then send it back and request a refund.
But, if the coin matches the description given, then the buyer is buying exactly what the seller has described and should not send it back, as it is a waste of time and money for the poor seller who has to pay for ebay & paypal fees because some anus wants something for nothing. It's not bloody fair.
That is all I am saying.

What I gather from what you're saying, these buyers are hoping that the seller has mis-described the coin in the description (Which in itself is grounds for a mis-sale).
If the seller realised their mistake too late, they couldn't then back out of the deal 'guilt-free', they would be given negitive feedback and a bad wrap.

That being said, if said buyer brought a coin from a novice seller, and that seller described the coin as 'Fine' and it turned out to be aUNC, said buyer wouldn't then send it back saying this is not as described, would they? It has to go both ways, in that respect.

I also feel, that sellers should have the option to give negitive feedback to dodgy buyers, sellers have no rights on ebay (I can only talk about ebay, as thats the only one I use)

Another thing that gives me the cold willy, is buyers who bid and bid then complain about postage costs, when the cost is stipulated before the buyer even bids. I know that is completely seperate, but worth mentioning.

If I have mis-interpreted anything, my humble apologies. But this is just my opinion

-Simon

 

Can't the seller claim the coin is damaged and refuse to take it back?

 

To be honest, I don't know..
Maybe some of the more knowledgable people in here will know the answer to that one, jjack.

 

If its ebay most likely not. Ebay usually favors the buyers and will go against the seller. A b&m store can refuse returns if they choose to. But that may cost them some business if the buyer badmouths the store to others.

 

As a note to the question of claiming it was damaged the answer is No it will not work. No matter if they took a skill saw to your item. Buyer protection gets them home free. I know for a fact that a tray I sent was purposely damaged to help the buyer return to me the seller. In the end it did not matter so the buyer ruined the piece for nothing. Buyer protection was all that was considered. I might also add that most of my adult life I owned an Investigative Agency. Using some research for names I certified and sent the entire Board Of Directors a certified letter to those at Ebay campus regarding a similar incident of damage and went one step further by being a call in too Ebay radio. Bottom line..It got me no where and it became crystal clear that a seller has no leg..Nada..to stand on regarding ebay. My take from all this is that I am happy that buyers have strong options dealing with Ebay. Sellers, on the other hand, have little-that makes me unhappy. It seems as a seller the best thing to do is chalk up misuses and scammers as a cost of doing business using Ebay. Ebay will not be in the sellers corner.

That said, if you are attending Orlando's Fun show write me and let me know where I can find you. I am sure the subject I have written about will be there shopping. I will be there Thursday only. Would be glad to point him out...hes trouble.

 

But the buyer is hoping that the coin is better than the seller thought it to be.

Let me use an example here to make it easier:

Seller has an 1889 CC Morgan, uncertified by a TPG, that he believes, and lists it as, MS62. He posts pics on his listing.

A buyer, looking at the coins pics, believes the coin may be a higher grade than MS62.

MS62 89CCs run in the neighborhood of $27,500 - $30,000.

The buyer purchases the coin, and after examination sees the coin is a higher grade than the seller believed it to be.

After he, and a dealer, examine the coin they determine that it is indeed a higher grade than the seller believed it to be, he keeps the coin and submits it for grading and slabbing and it comes in two points higher than the seller thought it was.

The value for a MS64 89CC is in the neighborhood of $65,000 - $68,000.

If the coin had been lower than the seller believed it was, on grade, the buyer would return it to the seller for a refund.

The buyer is looking, specifically, for coins that he believes are higher in grade than the seller(s) believe them to be as he is hoping to increase his investment, what he paid for the coin and shipping if there is any, to make a profit.

 

The seller can claim it, but would have to prove it.

Something everyone should remember about eBay and disputes of sales from their website.

eBay is NOT the final word on settling their disputes. Either party, seller or buyer, can take the matter before a court of law for a legal settlement to the dispute.

Peoples Court has had 7 such cases in 2011 alone, and if I remember correctly, only one case the judge agreed with eBay's final decision on the matter.