Success on Reporting Unethical Dealers?

Unless you can prove a case of "elder abuse", but that tends to stick only on relatives and caregivers. Otherwise you cannot tell me that some middle aged man with lots of money to blow isn't stupid for believing investment scams. Unfortunately you cannot yet convict someone of being stupid - but fortunate in a sense because there is already a huge shortage of jail cells. But they convict themselves with their stupidity by believing con artists/investment people.

I pay people the going rate for silver, right now about 21X - but I have heard numerous comments from people that have been offered that 8x-10x and thought they were getting a great deal - until they hear what I will pay. I have deals going around with the 7-11 cashiers, tellers in banks etc.

 

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That case has yet to be argued in court.

What he said, and what I asked him to post, was sufficient examples where those taken advantage of have successfully argued their case in court.

NFN, but, if Goldline is ruled against on that matter, does that mean the U.S. Mint is guilty of selling overpriced gold coins too? Who's to say?

​

 

Success

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7524&p=124915&hilit=kearney#p124915

In my own experience, I have brought up unethical conduct to the ANA, they have an ethics committee which helps to address and mediate these things. Also, a PNG dealer, well-known, who was unresponsive to an issue. To a Coin World advertiser, who kept the coin and took my $3500 plus. Coin World was unhelpful or couldn't do anything, so I hired a lawyer, we got a judgment of the said amount plus court costs, but have been unable to collect because he is a welfare case. Next, the guy who used to run "Sunshine Rarities" (then "Spare Change"), who tried to pull a fast one on me in regard to a $5000 1891 Morgan dollar. I got my money back from him, but I heard the guy went to jail for stiffing others. I have a half dozen other examples if you want. BTW, I keep getting letters from National Gold Exchange's lawyer or the legal firm handling that case. There are a lot of dealers hoping to get their money back.

 

Another term for that is "constructive" fraud(Wikipedia):

Constructive fraud is a legal fiction used in the law to describe a situation where a person or entity gained an unfair advantage over another by deceitful, or unfair, methods. Intent does not need to be shown[SUP][1][/SUP] as in the case of actual fraud. Some unfair methods may include not telling customers about defects in a product[SUP][2][/SUP].
The elements are[SUP][3][/SUP]:

1. a duty owing by the party to be charged to the complaining party due to their relationship[SUP][4][/SUP];
2. violation of that duty by the making of deceptive material misrepresentations of past or existing facts or remaining silent when a duty to speak exists;
3. reliance thereon by the complaining party;
4. injury to the complaining party as a proximate result thereof; and
5. the gaining of an advantage by the party to be charged at the expense of the complaining party.

 

If you read the article, they have been charged with bait and switch.

Not being the least bit familiar with their tactics, that still sounds like a stretch to me. However, that has nothing to do with the problems presented by the OP nor what medoraman is saying.

 

In terms of buying rare coins and notes there are also some basic rules. Remember the case where Littleton Coin was offered some rare notes?

Here is that case:

"The owner said that when he first asked a couple of dealers to appraise coins and 64 other pieces of 19th century paper money he received, he got conflicting answers. One estimated the collection was worth $1,100. A second "spotted something of great interest" and estimated the value at $2,000, the owner said.
"It just struck me there may be something here worth pursuing," the owner said, and was referred to Sundman's company.
"We told them right away, 'This is a big deal,' " Sundman said.
Of the six such bills known to survive, one is in the Smithsonian Institution and another is in the government's Bureau of Public Debt, Sundman said. Three are in collectors' hands. The latest is in Littleton's vault, awaiting auction next spring.
A similar $20 bill discovered last year sold at auction for $528,000, he said."

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/dec/03/news/mn-60489

Could Littleton (by no means a company known for fair prices paid for material they buy) have gotten those notes cheap? You betcha! As a certified appraisal company, would they have risked legal charges had they then made a 10,000% profit? Probably, it depends whether the seller became aware of it, had a shrewd enough lawyer take the case on, and won.

 

I would certainly have called the bozo out for that kind of shenanigan. And he should have been booted from the show.

 

And that cost you how much, over and above the $3500 you already lost ?



Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t196842-4/#ixzz1hBqWacDO

$600, plus a lot of aggravation. I thought it was important to bring it to justice. I did not take it to the next level where the sheriff would have gone in and ransacked the SOBs apartment, or hire my own enforcer to slap him around. ​

 

Giorgio I see you are from Virginia. It was actually at the Vienna Coin Show. Awesome show. He was the last table I visited before leaving the show. I won't give his name, but I believe he had a Russian Accent.

 

Eventually the justice system and computers will address substantial problems like this. It is one reason I am all for expanded surveillance systems and giving the tax authorities the powers to do their jobs. Eventually they will have all those powers, and they will not be able to exercise their power arbitrarily against the astute citizen. These days it takes months before law enforcement gets their perpetrator and years before the tax authorities get the cheat. If someone makes a killing by buying coins on the cheap, he/she owes the maximum amount. So at least the tax authorities are entitled to their fair share.

 

Hiring someone to commit an assault is felonious and would most likely land you in jail and at the wrong end of a civil suit.

 

I would never do that, that is why we try to use law enforcement to do things in an orderly fashion. But I was talking with a Massachusetts dealer who said that used to be fairly common--if someone ripped you off big time, you would pay someone to break his limb, if still no $$$ were forthcoming you would pay him to do it again. Mafia-style tactics are no good and it is the reason the Feds come down hard on them. Ultimately the crook has to live with themselves, and that is prison enough.

 

The ANA ethics committee is not a court.

Congratulations on arguing your position before them, but it's not a court.

 

Speaking of the ANA, I occasionally see notices in The Numismatist that a member has been expelled for conduct unbecoming a member. Don't know what effect that would have on their business. I seldom ask coin people I deal with if they happen to be members or not.
If PNG is disciplining members, they don't seem to publicize the fact.

 

PNG does discipline, but they try to do it professionally, behind closed doors. I have heard of some PNG cases, but always though back channels.

At least this is the scuttlebut I have always heard.

 

I would think they couldn't publicize that.

It would be like, you going to a bowling alley, and one of the desk attendants swears at you and you file a complaint with the owner/GM. They would handle it internally, but not tell you what action was taken.

 

Hey now, not all guys with Russian accents are bad people. One of my favourite dealers has a Russian accent, and he sells a lot of Russian and European coins. He is the guy at the shows in the Midwest that has all the Russki speaking types like me jabbering in Russki. Aleks Basok is the guy, and I have been buying from him for years.

 

I do not think Jason meant that as a slur sir. I am sure it was meant just as a way to identify the dealer that he didn't remember the name of.

One of my best dealers is ex-pat Russian, and some board members here who are Russian I consider my friends. Believe me, if I thought anyone was slurring a man do to him being Russian or former Soviet country of origin I would be right with you denouncing such stereotypes. I have stated before its bewildering why the US and Russia are not closer friends, as we have a lot of history in common.

Chris