Success on Reporting Unethical Dealers?

Simple! Value is subjective. Grading is subjective. Even cleaning is subjective as to what is acceptable. Market acceptable toning is nothing but subjective. That only leaves one possibility - counterfeit/altered.

One I can absolutely guarantee he will get absolutely no where with is overcharging. Not even a miniscule prayer.

 

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What is full market value? Ideally it is what you can reliably expect to sell a coin for. As such a dealer can never give you FMV because he has to make a profit to stay in business. What is reasonable for a dealer to spend on a coin? That depends. If you bring me a coin that I know I can sell within the next two weeks then I will offer between 90% and 95% (which is basically Grey sheet bid) for the coin. If it is a coin of some rarity but I don't expect to be able sell it quickly I might offer 70% to 75% because it is going to tie up my money for a bit. If on the other hand you bring me a 1909 VDB in XF condition (Grey sheet ask 13.75) don't expect to see more than a few bucks. WHY? Because I and probably every other dealer in the room have 15-20 1909 VDB's in XF or better in their inventory and don't really need to add another.
What this all means is that a dealer will set his prices on his needs, not your expectations. You don't have to accept his price but if you do then you don't really have anything complain about. It is not my job to educate every person that comes to my table about the realities of the trade (I often do but it is not a requirement). In have no way of knowing what you know about the coin you are selling, all I know is how much I need or don't need that coin in my inventory.

Richard

 

While, I agree with you that using professional knowledge to put one over on the uninitiated isn't right. EVERY business transaction seems to be done in that manner. Buy a car, a house, appliance, coin, whatever. Best to assume the seller knows more about the item than you do and proceed with utmost caution. Recently a fellow thought he got one over on a gun deal when he gave $800 for a 44 colt, only to learn the gun was made up of pieces of several different guns and nothing matched.

So, if you are going to offer a coin, you need to know more about it than a potential buyer. Even if you are honest to a fault, l;ack of knowledge can leave you coming up short. Too bad there are those in this hobby/profession that do take advantage. As a recent attributor who purchased an "error variety cent" he authenticated for his own collection. Only to offer it for 15 times that on his website.

I believe that those who go beyond the hobby standpoint and treat their coins as some sort of speculative investment, take the greatest risk. Not only are they risking what the coin costs, but the profit potential. IMHO

gary

 

Well as long as the truly unethical ones have really good lawyers ( and most do) and no body else does I see little chance of any success.

 

This summer a "hotel buyer" set up shop in a local hotel.

They had a huge full color ad in the paper.

At the time, silver coins had a value of about 30x face.

It said in the ad, "Up to 8 times face value for your silver coins".

Yup, 80 cents for a dime, $2.00 for a quarter, $4.00 for a half, and $8 for Silver dollars.

I go to yard sales quite a bit in the summer, often asking people if they had any old coins.

Many times, "Oh I took them to that coin shop in the hotel".

My heart sunk.

You will not believe how many older people have coins. Many know little of their value.

As a coin buyer, yes you cannot pay full value, because you have to make money off of it.

But to pay so little, is unethical.

Your taking advantage of people by doing that.

 

That pretty much sums up the cable TV coin shows.

 

Maybe from me Chip, idk. This is the law where I was from. If a person who is in a position of greater knowledge lies to you about its value, then they can be held culpable of fraud if they know the other party does not have their knowledge. I helped the local police in a sting when I was younger. I had to get the hotel buyers to tell me the silver dollars, (one was a planted F 1893 S), was only worth X. If they only said they would pay X it was not a crime. The two older ones knew the game and would not say it, luckily the younger guy, exasperated, (and wanting the silver dollars), told me, "hey kid, they are only worth $15 and we are offering you $12", (something to that affect, I cannot remember the numbers, but well under the market in late 79). Well that was the magic answer, I was wired, and the cops came in and arrested everyone.

State law can vary, but frequently if a person of knowledge, says to a person with no knowledge, an estimate of value it cannot be untruthful. Sometimes its called the "widow's law" or "little old lady" law. However, like rlm said, value can be subjective, so to prosecute usually it has to be eggregious. That is why they planted a multi hundred dollar coin in, and not just a $60 coin, they wanted the violation to be above defensible.

Just my opinion and experience. I am not advocating any of these practices Owle, I don't think any of us are, but simply saying that the law cannot step into every transaction. Coin collecting, unfortunately, has historically attracted many snake oil salesman type of dealers. It is unfortunate. I have been yelled at here for "being unethical" and informing family members of better options when they were getting lowballed in coin shows. I completely understand your frustration with these tactics, but my posts are reflecting reality unfortunately.

Chris

 

Do you happen to know the outcome of those arrests? I would be amazed if anyone was convicted of anything. I just do not see how every dealer could possible know the value of every coin out there. I just cannot be done, but if he is wrong, he will get arrested. Really? Someone is going to have to explain that one to me.

 

I will admit I am not sure. I testified in court, but was not there to see if convicted of the sentence if convicted. I was chosen to be involved because the cops asked the dealer I hung around to help, and I was in the store when they came in and I volunteered.

If it makes you feel better, two of the three pulled out a redbook looking through my coins, but of course would not let me see. All three of them spent most of their time studying the 93s. I sleep well at night because I firmly believe they knew the value of the coin full well.

I hear what you are saying, and if it were an esoteric item I would agree. However, I think you would agree that on the other end of the spectrum that there ARE salesmen intentionally ripping off uninformed non collectors. I am all for open free markets, but if someone who doesn't know coins comes to a professional dealer asking value, the dealer should not legally be allowed to tell them a $600 coin, (that he KNOWS is a $600 coin), that its worth $12. That is why, if a dealer simply says "I will pay you $12", he is not lying to you, maybe he doesn't know its a rare date, but he will buy it for melt or something. There is no perfect answer, but just relaying the laws in Iowa and my experience.

Chris

 

Yes, there are dealers intentionally lying about the prices. So are car dealers intentionally lying about the price of a car. I guess technically, with that law you could arrest 7/11 employees because Walmart sells their stuff for less. How on earth do you draw a line?

 

I would say scope. If you are a little old lady taking a 67 stingray mint convertible into a rare car dealer, and they tell her the car is worth $2000, is that right too? If they said its worth $25,000, and maybe another dealer might say $30,000, that is close and understandable. If a dealer in rare coins knows full well a coin is a $600 coin, and tells a non collector its worth $12, that is so far apart as to be unreasonable.

I hear you, if he simply misses the date and says all morgan's are worth $12, that could be a problem. However, should a dealer be giving out professional advice as to value without knowing what he is saying? Do we really think its acceptable for professional dealers blatantly lying to non collectors as to worth? He could always have said its worth $400 but I can only offer $100, or similar to me. Instead the dealer looked intently at the coin, with a reference in hand, and lied to me massively on the value with the intent to defraud. I know there could be a massive grey area, but at some point there has to be accountibility.

Chris

 

If someone over pays for an item or sells an item for less than it's worth that's their own issue and unfortunately that's how 99% of businesses are run. I know people in many different fields in different aspects of business and the goal of any business is profit not to feel good about things at the end of the day. Is it unethical for a mechanic to charge someone who knows nothing about cars 500 bucks for a brake job, or is unethical for a computer repairman to charge $300 for a simple ten minute fix, or how about a bank to accept a gold coin and pay the person exchanging it face value? The list could go on and on. The BBB is a joke they have no real authority and any business that pays up it's fee's to be a member will receive high marks and have complaints removed. Is it ethical that these things occur in business it depends on the persons definition and what they find moral or not, some people have no trouble doing these types of things on a daily basis without a second thought. Just because somethings happen and leave people's feelings hurt because they overpaid, undersold, etc it doesn't usually make it a crime in anyway and you'd be hard pressed to find something like this actually illegal and a D.A. willing to waste tax payers money and try and prosecute a case of this type.

 

FWIW, I have seen things at 7/11 that sell for 2+ times the Walmart price. Then is this seller violating your law?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-S-LINC...50?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item53dbac0a7e.

He wants $423 for a $100 - $130 coin. Oh! And it is on sale 25% off

 

2x ?
You can get a coke for around 25 cents a piece in a case format.
How about a jewelry store with their 1100% mark up?
Or what do you think the real costs are on that Ruth Chris steak they sell for 50 bucks.
It's business. It's profit. It's how the country runs.
If you don't like a deal then walk away. I know I don't eat at Ruth Chris much how about you?

Yes Fake coins and straight out fraud is another story but the rest is up to you the consumer to know what your buying IMO

 

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So basically you're saying the buyer can not walk away from a sellers deal?

Still waiting for you to post past cases heard in any court supporting what you state.

I think you're still looking, or just blowing wind

 

The main difference, (and the only reason I support this law), is it deals SPECIFICALLY to a non expert going to an expert and asking for a valuation. The ONLY instance it applies is where a widow goes to a coin dealer to ask how much her husband's coins are worth, or to a colelctible car dealer to ask what an old stingray is worth. In that limited circumstance where a non expert goes to an expert BECAUSE that person is an expert, the law simply says the expert cannot blatantly lie to the other, with the intent of buying well below market. If the other party is a coin collector, the law doesn't apply. Buying a coin? Law doesn't apply. Selling to a dude on Craigslist, law doesn't apply. Even if you are selling to a dealer, if the dealer doesn't lie and simply says, "I can pay you X for it", and does not tell the non-expert that its WORTH x, (legally an appraisal), then it doesn't apply.

I am all for laize faire economics, but do not think preventing expert lying in an appraisal to widows and non experts is TOO much to ask. Every single instance other than what I described would not be covered.

Dang, hope I am not getting a rep for wanting to be a government interventionist. That REALLY is not my economic outlook.

Chris

 

What I meant by my blowing wind statement was, relating to my post where I asked him to post court cases in reply to his statement:

I asked him to, and he hasn't because he's either still trying to find one, or just blowing wind.

As far as his opinion on the matter, I have no problem with him expressing that opinion at all, he is entitled to it, no different than anyone else.