Just thought I would bounce this off you guys. There is an auction coming up next month, and the firm allows internet bidding as well as floor bidding. I looked at the internet bidding, and a good friend is the current high bid. "Good friend" meaning good coin friend, member of my coin club, I join with him to buy books from Europe, Facebook friend, etc. Not a personal friend, (we don't hang out and drink beers). Should I stop pursuing this lot because of this, should I talk to him about it, etc? I know its going to go for much more than current bid, but I would feel bad if in the long run we were the last two bidders. Assuming I win the lot, should I even bring it up at our coin club? I will be using a rep, so there is no way anyone will know I won the lot unless I tell them. He is very much into these coins, but unfortunately so am I. My plan, if I won the lot, was to casually ask him how did he do, and if I hear it went for way over his limit, then would feel comfortable telling him I won them. Just wondering how you guys would handle this. Chris
I once had a manager who I became friends with. He once told me, never take it personally if I ever have to fire you, business is business, friendship is friendship. But he also knew I'd never give him a reason to fire me. That day did come but that was because he was being the middle man as in relaying the information about being laid off from work, he took me and the other guy getting laid off out to a really nice lunch, on his tab. So I'd say, tell him you're gonna be bidding on it but not to take it personally if you outbid him. Honesty is always the best policy.
Well, if you both really want them it will be a TRUE auction, IMO. Plus, he may get insulted if you say, in effect, "You may as well give it up because I want it and I've got more to spend." He may compete more seriously if he believes he is slighted than if he didn't know until you show it at your coin club Then I see it as more of a sportsmanlike conversation, like the post-game show after football. I say you should proceed as you normally would, feigning ingorance of bidding history. Especially if using a rep. which would have absolutely no knowledge of your friends' bidding activity. Besides, if you talk to him about it and he agrees to bow out he may expect that from you in the future. I'd win, then bring it for show and tell, much to the suprise of your competition
You should bid. If you were selling a coin - would you want people to collude and keep you for getting what you should? So bid - who says either of you two will even when the auction. Plus one of you two might be willing to spend more than the other for this example.
I agree with what everyone else said, it's just business. And as you said, you are "coin" friends not personal friends. Nothing to feel bad about here. I'd bid against you any day. =)
And I would bid against you as well Dmitry. Actually, if you collected what I do, you very well would be bidding against me I assume since the auction is in your town in a couple of weeks. This is a "major" auction, so its very true that its likely neither of us will win, as this auction is notorious for producing "strong" results, and my friend's bid is not even to estimate, and for this auction for group lots, estimate is usually multiplied x2 or 3 minimum. I just wanted to know if I was wrong for not talking to him about it, or mentioning I was going to be bidding. Thanks for everyone's opinions. I think I will just ignore that I saw he was high electronic bidder right now, since it probably will not be close to the final bid price. Chris
A related question: Lets say a major auction of a specialty is coming up and two of us share deep interest in this specialty. In fact the two of us are probably the most major collectors in this specialty. Do you see anything wrong with us getting together before the sale and comparing our bid lists? If we both planned to bid on a lot, we would agree that whichever of us had written down the lower number would not bid at all while the higher would be required to bid up to the number he wrote for that lot. For example if I planned to bid $300 and you planned to bid $200, I would win the lot for one advance over the third highest bid (lets say $100) rather than one advance over your bid. Obviously if another bidder were to bid over $300, neither of us would win the lot but if there was no other bidder over the second of our bids, the winner would win the coin more cheaply. The seller would get less money. Is this OK? Now lets go a step further and say Chris and I were using the same rep for the sale and we each wanted the same lot. Do you expect that rep to bid against himself until he reaches the lower of our bids or do you expect him to refuse to represent the lower of our bids telling the one of us that was lower that he had a conflict on that lot and he would not win with the bid so he would not place it. It would be wrong for that rep to tell the lower bidder what he needed to bid to beat the higher but would it be wrong to let me know that the money I was reserving for that lot would not be spent in case I wanted to apply it to another lot? When we use an auction rep, we expect that rep to buy the lot for us as cheaply as he can. That means he does not tell the seller that we are bidding up to $300 so the seller can shill a $295 bid. I have won lots placed through a rep for $50 of my maximum bid and believe in many cases that bidding through a rep will end up cheaper even counting the fee you pay him to bid for you. I'm not sure there is a black/white honor/dishonor answer to many auction practices but I do believe that you should tell the friend in advance that you are also bidding on the lot or never show him the coin.
All good questions Doug. I am unsure of where I would be. My first inclination would be that it would be wrong to compare bid lists and agree to bid/not bid, I would simply be uncomfortable with that. Maybe asking if he was bidding strongly or not, maybe I would be ok with that, but no numbers, and no quid pro quo on assigning pieces to bid. Regarding the Rep, that is a very tough one. Going through the permutations, I think he should tell one party it conflicts with an existing bid he is representing. My first thought is he should simply execute the higher bid, but then what if it sells for less than the lower bidders threshold. If he says anything to the lower bidder, he is violating the trust with the higher bidder. I agree with the value of a rep. Way too many people bid on coins without having eyes on site to see it, that scares the heck out of me, and you are right a good rep can many times read a room and get it cheaper than you can by mail bids. Doug, does it help to know this is a large group lot whether I should tell my friend about it? I doubt he would ever know even if I showed him some of the coins. Or do you feel either way I should mention it? Chris
One of my ways of dealing with this situation is rather simple, and it used to happen to me rather often. If I ran across a coin I wanted and then saw that somebody I knew already had a bid on it - I'd walk away. Whoever got there first is what determined it in other words. But it also depends on the other person. When I was still buying coins there were some guys, that I considered friends, that I would openly compete with on a regular basis. And we'd joke about it even. Swear we'd get even with the guy - that sort of thing. But I have also known people who would actually get mad at me if I outbid them on a coin. Even when I didn't know they were bidding. Like I said, it depends on the person. 'Course you can ask yourself, is this particular coin worth possibly costing you a friendship ? Another coin will surely come along. Will another friend ? There really is no right or wrong with something like this. You know the guy - go with what your gut tells ya to do
