Need to know if these are real and if so what exactly are they?

I have been a long time coin collector and was my main hobby as a kid. I have since completed college now and am out in the real world with a job. I recently began filling the holes in my collection and was approached from my wife's grandfather asking if I knew of these coins pictured below. He told me they were old and I was expecting an Indian head penny or something, but never expected these.... Honestly they kind of look like a fake, but I have no experience in ancient coins. Any suggestions?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/img2009tp.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/img2010cg.jpg/

 

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This is just my opinion, and I will probably catch a lot of flax for saying this, but I believe MOST all ancient coins are re-strikes. I cannot image a coin from pre-BC looking as good as todays strikes. I cannot say if your coins are originals or not, but if they are they should be worth many dollars, because collectors will pay a lot of money for ancients whether they are real or not. My suggestion would be for you to have the coins certified in some way so that you know what you have or intend to sell.

 

Hi thekid,

From your photos the coins look good to me. They are Parthian coins. We have some collectors of them here & I am sure they can ID the Rulers for you.

 

Awesome, that's helps a enormous bit as I had no clue what era or origins it could be from. He said he obtained these back in the 50's. If anyone else has some info to add please do as I will be researching these further.

 

This can get you started.


http://dougsmith.ancients.info/parthar.html

 

duplicate post

 

If you compare each to the images on the link Mat provided, you will find all five. As a hint, you will need to read the captions to separate the Vologases III and Mithradates IV (you have one of each). While the legends can help or confirm, most Parthian rulers are easily separated by their portraits and distinctive head gear. Very few put their own names on the coins preferring to use the dynastic name Arsakes and a string of titles in Greek which became increasingly butchered as time went on.
I see no reason to doubt these coins. None of these are particularly rare (which probably explains how we both have the same ones).  However, even common decent Parthian silver sells for reasonably good prices (not all that different from Roman denarii). These are not particularly high grade but just nice average, collectible coins.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/parthar.html
I would prefer you use the link to my pages in their current forms rather than the old ancients.info address which I will delete if I can ever figure out how. In this case, the pages are still identical but I am not updating pages on the old site. If I could get in to upload, I could delete the site and would have.

 

Well I disagree of course. Remember a lot of ancient coins are found in pots, in the ground protected from the elements. Also, nearly all ancient coins are cleaned, and we are ok with that. Together with the fact that some ancients survived in collections over the years and match new coins from the ground, and carbon testing confirms age, and its pretty airtight that most ancients are authentic. Remember also there were millions, tens of millions, even billions of these struck, and the chance for survivors is very large.

To the OP, your coins appear to be authentic parthian coins. The obverse is the king, the reverse is a pic of the founder of the dynasty. Check out www.parthia.com for the best website concerning these coins. They are all worth $40-100 on average. Parthia was at the time probably the third largest country on earth, and issued millions of these coins. Today there are many collectors who specialize in them.

Chris

Edit: Btw no disrespect Doug, I am sure your pages for these are nice, I just default to Parthia.com for any parthian questions. The builder of that site is an authority on this series. Just like I refer anyone to Tom Mallon's site if they ask about Sassanid issues.

 

Here's a great article about Rome and Parthia at war:


http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=war_roman_parthian


guy

 

Carbon testing only works for organic material, so using it to date coinage would not work.

 

I understand, but organic material is frequently found in flans, as well as as part of the find site in which the coins are dug.

 

I am trying to understand your comments.... Could you define re-strikes? Are you saying that they are created from modern dies or dies created from some ancient originals?

I have seen ancients sell for less than $1 and you can get a huge variety of ancients < $50.

Regards,
An intrigued Martin

 

I don't have first-hand familiarity with Parthian coins, so I defer to the attribution suggestions given.

Just wanted to throw in my opinion that, from the photographs, I don't see any reason to believe they are forgeries. Photography isn't enough to confirm authenticity, but I believe they're most likely genuine. To be sure, you might take them to an expert for a "check-up." I've brought silver Greek coins to American, British, and mainland European dealers and museums on a number of occasions, and with the exception of having to wait sometimes, been able to get a free opinion almost every time.

From about $40 and up you can get a thorough examination and certificate of authenticity that will be honored by most collectors and dealers, but it's probably not worth the price for those particular coins.

Of course, counterfeiting bedevils ancient coin collectors, and you have to be somewhat vigilant and educated about it if you buy or (especially) sell ancients. There are counterfeits that sometimes trick, and coins that ultimately cannot be authenticated nor deemed forgeries by, seasoned experts (not that I claim to be one). Mojavedave's view is just his own conjecture, a view I've heard many times from people unfamiliar with ancient coins: "They can't be real. It's just not possible. If those were really real, they'd be worth, like, a million dollars!" Wrong.

The constant stream of well-documented archaeological research (not to mention amateur and entrepreneurial finds), museum collections, serious scholarly research, and the historical record provide sufficient evidence to "believe in" the reality ancient coins.

 

Well, of course Parthia.com is a better resource than my pages. My pages are simply simplified and simplistic summaries on some subjects posted there for the purpose of helping beginners stick one toe in the scholarship pool rather than drowning in the ocean of completeness of true scholarship. In this case, we were shown five of the most common Parthian drachms. All five of them are very closely matched by coins on my page. I believe that for the OP to figure out what his coins are himself is better than spoon feeding Sellwood numbers to someone who quite likely would never see a Sellwood book. I am increasing reluctant to provide answers to ID requests from people who have not tried to find the answers. In this case, the person who said the coins were Parthian did good for the cause because these coins do not bear legends saying 'Parthian' and figuring that much out just from the coins could be difficult. Mat provided the link to my page as a place to 'get started' not as the Encyclopedia of all things coin. Today, unlike the year my site began, we have sites like Coin Talk, Forvm and Coin Community where someone can go for help with such things on an interactive basis. For that reason today there may be no continuing need for amateur summaries but I still believe that the overall good of the 'Teach a Man to Fish' theory is better served by suggesting beginners read Dr. Seuss before they tackle James Joyce.

 

Radiometric dating is used for rocks, etc. Also remember, they can use thermoluminescence dating as well for inorganic materials, especially popular with ceramics to determine the age if they're found along with everything else in the area.

Plenty of options to determine the age so you can conclude if they're real or fake for sure!

 

"simply simplified and simplisitic summaries on some subjects" Gotta love that alliteration.

 

Most people interested in coins don't want to interact with others at Internet sites. Many people's interest in coins is limited to a single question or specific aspect. They are also unlikely to interact.

This is why there will always be an important role for "amateur summaries" that are sometimes better written and more accessible than some "scholarly studies."

Another example is the study of Ancient Roman history. Many people are inhibited to study Ancient history further because of the unnecessary hurtles: obscure historical references, untranslated Latin passages, poorly written works, unapproachable elitism, etc.

Without new and enthusiastic students, the fields of Ancient numismatics and Ancient history will wither and die on the vines. Many of these "amateur summaries" are the best introductions to these fields of study, while also both teaching and inspiring more scholarly research.


guy

 

Hi ! Martin,

Re-strike = COPY, as in most coins from China which DO NOT carry the copy rule.

Douting Dave

 

Here is a coin sellers statement on duplicate coins. My Point is, is that many ancient coins ARE being duplicated (duh). Actual gold coins may exist, but are very expensive. Silver coins are less likely to survive and are just as expensive if not more. So if it's not certified, how do you know it's not just junk ?

*****REPRODUCTIONS***** , THESE RINGS AND COINS AND PENDANTS ARE HANDMADE AND RESEMBLE COIN JEWELRY OF THE ANCIENT TIMES. FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS GOLD AND SILVER ANCIENT JEWELRY WAS MELTED DOWN BECAUSE ITS FINDER THOUGHT ITS VALUE WAS IN THE METEL .TODAY ITS VALUE AS AN ARTIFACT , ANCIENT JEWELRY OR ANCIENT ARTWORK HOPEFULLY PREVENTS SUCH A FATE .THE ANCIENT GREEKS CONSIDERED GOLD IMMORTAL ,NOTHING ERODES IT , IT WAS ZUES' GIFT TO THE MORTALS . THEREFORE GOLD ANCIENT JEWELRY SURVIVED THOUSANDS OF YEARS (AND COST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ) SILVER ON THE OTHER HAND , DUE TO ITS PERISHABLE NATURE , DOES NOT SURVIVE FROM ANTIQUITY AS WELL. THAT MAKES SILVER ANCIENT JEWELRY EVEN MORE RARE THAN ONE OF GOLD.

THESE ARE NOT CLOSE KNOCKOFFS THESE ARE EXACT DUPLICTES OF AN ACCUAL ANCIENT COIN.

 

There are at least a million types of genuine ancient coins. It may be hard to believe but they outnumber the fakes. Your seller is trying to sell his fakes and make buyers think they are the only option. Believe as you must but don't pay more for fakes than you need to for real coins.