The results of my ebay coin

To add to what Conder has said, perhaps some people don't realize that as grease-filled debris continues to build up in the devices, it is compacted from continual striking to the point where it can be almost as hard as steel.

Chris

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Darryl if I have done something wrong on here that hurt someone or their feelings then I truely apoligize to them. I didn't mean any harm to anyone. When I started this thread I never asked for anyone's help or their opinions. everyone volunteered their opinions and I don't remember saying anything bad back to them for just their opinion.I admit some folks said some childish remarks and I did say a few childish things back to them.

I just wanted to tell you folks about the error coin and what I thought of it after receiving it from the Ebay seller. As far as those photos goes I explained that my wife is sick ,she has a serious heart problem and I have been trying to take care of her,I was up about all night last night with her. my wife is more important to me that a darn coin image or all of the coins in the world..

I'm kind of new to this forum and I did not know that it was wrong for someone to tell about a error coin that they thought they already knew what it was. So please tell me is it ok for me to put a error coin on this forum if I think I already know what it is ? If this is against the rules of the company that owns this coin talk forum then please let me know and I will not do it again.

 

If you don't want opinions when posting here, say so, up front, in your post.
When opinions are offered, and they always are, consider them. Don't tell people
they know nothing about the subject just because they don't agree with you.
You have told some of the most experienced and knowledgeable folks in the coin business
that they know nothing, and that you know everything, and, in my opinion, you end up
looking like more of a fool with each successive post.
Now go tend to your wife. She needs you now more than we do. I hope that she is well soon.

 

Rascal,

First, I am sorry about your wife, she is more important than any coin or forum activity. I hope she recovers from her medical issues.

Second, based on the 1st thread on this subject, what did you hope to accomplish by starting a new thread and saying the coin has arrived and in your opinion it is definitely an error as you have described it (without posting apicture)? That is a serious question.

You haven't done anything wrong but you also have not done anything to help create a constructive conversation. Based on the way you have presented the topic you have created a place for people to come argue with you. We encourage all levels of involvement at all ages. You have to be prepared when you say something in such a definite manner to be able to back it up - or you get what has developed in this thread. Fortunately plenty of people have tried to make this a informative thread despite some of the childish behavior as noted by Matt.

At this point, it would only help you in my opinion to post good pictures ofthe coin to continue in a more educational discussion. Do that when you have time and it is convenient given your circumstances. Always remember, you are dealing with a wide range of experience, age, attitudes. No one should be making personal attacks and everyone's goal should be to have an constructive conversation.

So please post away rascal, but if you are going to make definitive statements without being able to show the coin or references, understand you are setting you and the topic up for a very difficult conversation. I hope it works out for you. I know some of the folks on here are just about asexperienced as they get. I am not going to discount anyone's opinion without having the ability to show proof otherwise, regardless of how much I think I know.

 

I have to agree with this. The way you have approached this thread, you have just set yourself up for ambush.

Rascal, you and I have had our differences of opinion in the past, but I'm not the kind of person who dwells on the past. People change and so do opinions. Right now, your wife's medical condition is the ONLY important thing to concern yourself about. So, maybe you should just forget about this thread and take care of the only real thing that means anything to you. I know it can be hard to do. I've been there, and it is a relief to be able to turn your attention away from your troubles just to ease your mind for a while.

Best wishes for you and your family.

Chris

 

My wife appears to have started to feel a little better and I have rushed it up and tried to get some images on here or I knew I would never hear the end of it if I didn't get it done. My photos are not very good but this is hard for me to do thru the slab. I'm not going to say another word about this coin unless asked and you guys go at it and I'm interested in what everyone comes up with.I hope you can see the images after they get on the forum.

 

The letters near the date pretty much rule out the dropped debris or filling theory. If it was dropped filling... Why are they all there? Why did they drop at the same time as the building?... And how did they all remain oriented properly?

It's either a clash as indicated by ICG or it's a smash job (my vote still).

 

If that is a clash, it's certainly IMO unusual in that there is a huge area on the device (lincoln's head), by virtue of being a device without empty field inside, that should prevent a clash from showing there, with few exceptions. Also, I find it difficult to believe that the lettering from the reverse that supposedly clashed is 'clear and readable' so close to the edge. The way the dies are made, I believe (in a conical shape, that aren't always "flat" to the edges????) seems to limit how close to the edge most clashes can be.

Anyone fully familiar with the process of die making and clashes and how they show on fields/devices/lettering, please correct me if my suppositions are incorrect. Thanks.

 

The die clash theory is impossible. Evidence of die clashes exists when an incuse area on one half of a die hits a flat area on the other half (i.e. the fields). There is no way physically that you can get such an impression when two incuse areas come in contact, as you have directly on the portrait of Lincoln. You may have slight evidence around the edges of the incuse parts, where there is overlap with flat fields, but not in the area where the incuse portions align.
There is only empty space there, nothing into which an impression can be made from either side.

I also still believe it's an altered coin.

 

I've seen better ones, where they hit it twice.

 

It might be clashed, about 10 % chance at very best (but I seriously doubt it's anything more than PMD....it's ICG when ANACS-the new, awful ANACS-and ICG basically swapped offices and personnel and made each other weaker, business-wise, and less reliable/respected grading-wise, in the process...neither were in the best of ways BEFORE they played 'ring-around-the-rosie', but after they played that foolish game and swapped, it made everything worse, including grading capabilities and how serious they were taken in the hobby...they are both jokes now, IMO...you CAN find a properly graded steal once in a blue moon in their holders, but you can find one in an SGS holder too..not SEGS, but SGS)....but, regardless, even if it IS a clashed die, it's STILL a 1988 in EF!! It's really worth no more than the $11 (approximately, from what I can remember) paid for it. This coin certainly does give new meaning to the term 'modern crap'.

As an aside, no coin is worth more, or getting worked up over more, than the health of a loved one, so I honestly hope your wife is doing better, and will continue to improve, rascal. THAT'S more important than anything, ANYTHING!!!

 

I'll add to why I feel this can't be a clash.
The marks are rotated. Can't see the dies being that far off in 1988.
A clash this strong would have to also show on the reverse of the coin.
Add what was already posted above, it can't be a clash.

The new images show that dropped debris is not likely as well.
Can't see any other way this could have happened at the mint.

 

I agree about the clash. It would be highly usual to have the reverse die rotated that far on an 88. The coins has all the hallmarks of a smash job.

If I was really sure it was some sort of error, I'd send this to Mike Diamond for confirmation.

 

I have to agree with the others.

There is no way that dropped elements, i.e., that part of the Memorial and the lettering "RIC", which are separated by fields could fall away from the reverse die and remain in perfect relationship to one another. What is there to link them together when they fall out of the die? If some sort of debris had built up in the field to hold them together, then we would surely see evidence of that impression in the righthand field on the obverse.

The clash theory, suggested by ICG is also impossible because the area of Lincoln's bust is the deepest incused area on the obverse die. It is impossible for these impressions to be that strongly visible across Lincoln's face. Furthermore, if the clash had been that strong, then we would have to see evidence of the clashed Memorial on the left side of the obverse.

My vote is for the "smash job", too!

Chris

 

Finally pictures for further investigation. I'll agree with most of the others and my first impression, smash job or PMD for sure.

It's a perfect candidate to place on railroad tracks for the complete smash job.

 

Yes, that is exactly right too. A clash cannot occur in the deepest part of the design. If it did manage that, it would be all the across the portrait.

 

Well folks after another look at my weird coin and stopping to think about it I'm going to have to say that a lot of us got fooled with this coin, even me. If I was wrong about saying ICG definately got it wrong then I apoligize to them right now. I just didn't think to stop and look at the coin better and this caused a lot of confusion on this forum. If I hurt anyone's feelings then I'm sorry. I knew the coin was a real mint error the minute I first saw it in hand but thought there was no way it could be as labeled by ICG as MAJOR DIE CLASH.

well today I took another peek at the coin then it finally came thru my bull head clear as day. Now after all I have said about ICG I'm going to have to backtrack and say they was right and I was wrong. I don't care to admit it when I make a mistake. I have no idea how the folks at ICG figured this one out because it sure as heck took me a long time and usually I can figure out a error coin in a split second.....

Mostlikely what has happened to this obv. die that got clashed is the fact that the reverse die was probably warped and worn out. or it was bent in the center or left hand side this would have let these details of the rev. die go up inside of Lincoln's chin. well folks we probably learned a few things with this discussion anyway. I will also add this to my other thread so everyone can find this post. Troy

 

Actually I think you are the only one fooled by this coin and you still are. The idea you have now is not possible. Look at the reverse. No signs of a clash or a damaged die. How in the world is a die going to bend in the center? Nothing you have posted about the coin has been possible, to this point.

 

good Lord man where is your common sense? try to stop and think and surely you can figure it out by yourself because I'm not going to tell you.I may tell you here in a few days if someone else don't want to help you.

 

So tell us why the reverse of the coin shows no signs of a clash or the die being damaged. Do you really feel insulting others will make them agree with your impossible ideas?