Naive question, I'm sure, but how does a copper coin survive 340 years, maintaining most of its original luster? It was graded as MS by PCGS with no mention of "artificial coloring." Does this and similar coins survive the centuries in a bank vault? Somebody's drawer? Thoughts? Is this possible? Could this coin have been tampered with? (Not my coin) guy
Proper storage in a dry environment. Nobody handling it. I always suspect the really old ones, but I guess they are still around ?
With an absence of oil from fingers, put away in a nice dry place, (wood drawers are actually nice, the wood will absorb moisture from the air, its possible for copper to remain red. There are some beautiful full red 1793 cents certified about 10 years ago.
Not really. The wood will also put off gasses that cause the copper to tone - no longer be red. Yep there are. But how do you know that copper coin hasn't been dipped in all of those years ? You don't. Is it impossible for a coin, copper or other, to stay untoned for many years ? No, it's not impossible. But the odds of it happening are like billions to one against. All coins begin to tone the instant they leave the dies. And only in recent years, from a historical perspective, has anyone even cared to try and stop them from toning. And even today, we do not have a practical means of doing so. The best we can do is to slow it down. Copper is the most reactive metal there is of all our coinage metals. Even today the TPGs know for a fact that you cannot stop red copper from toning. Even if you use the very best modern storage methods. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
Well I was going to mention true mahogany. It does not put off those gases and was/is the wood of choice for coin cabinets. I agree oak and other modern woods are mostly bad ideas for coin cabinets. Regarding copper remaining red, I agree with you mostly. I do see difference in copper, though. I would agree if I ever saw a 1808-1814 cent red I would assume its dipped. The 1793 issues, though, tend to be a little more stable and copper can oxidize to a red state that is more stable. Can it be proved? No. Always remember the most dangerous place a coin can be is in human hands. I see ancients all of the time that survived perfectly well for 2000 years in the ground, and when they get put in collectors hands get ruined in a few years. Exposure to humans and the elements like air and water is what destroys coins. I think its possible some of these coins just get put into little boxes by bored heirs over the decades/centuries, thereby saving the coins in the process. Chris
Mahogany puts off far less of those gasses than other woods, but it still puts off the gasses. I would ask one other question, have you ever seen or heard of anything made of copper, from any period of time, that stayed red ? Then why would we even suspect that a copper coin could ?
I have a Lincoln souvenir belt buckle, (one of those things made from "confederate contraband"), that is copper and a stable dark red, reddish brown. No cleaning marks and appears original. I think it was similar to a coin and never used, just "collected". I got it in a group of stuff once, and it looks well cared for. If we are talking about a coin with a trace of wear then I would say there is absolutely no chance of it ever staying red. If we are talking about something put away brand new, and stored, then there is a chance. Btw Doug, I have seen a few instances of old storage for some coins and it was great. Some collectors used to use glass jars with glass lids, (similar to old canning jars). Glass is a wonderful material to store coins in, better than most materials used today. Do I raise an eyebrow when I see something 200 years old and red? Yeah, of course. If it is a darker, stable version of red, though, I am willing to entertain the possiblity, even though I will still most likely believe it was cleaned at some point. My "odds", in my head, would be if a coin was full BU, dark stable red, no damage, (meaning cared for properly), maybe 1 in a 100 or 1000. Your 1 in a billion may be right, but maybe I am just too trusting a person. Chris
Who the heck wants copper red when you could have the rich chocolate browns they naturally turn into? Guy
Very true Guy, I agree. I have said this a number of times regarding ancients that a bright shiny copper Roman would look so weird to me I would not even want one, prefering the nice toned coins we have today.
There are aspects of that Charles II coin that do indeed raise concerns - the darker fields suggest something happened in the history of the coin and probably more recently in it's existence. The challenge with those much older coins is that they can indeed be dipped, and the fact being gotten away with because they do not have the smooth surfaces from the dies that modern coins do. It is much more difficult to dip an 1897 IHC and get away with it because the original luster will be destroyed by the process. It is indeed possible under near or ideal conditions for a coin to survive in an "uncirculated" state. There are Roman coins that have indeed toned over time as bronze does - but they show no wear and were stored in earthen vessels in the deserts of North Africa. In contrast unfortunately are the bronzes of Syracuse and Ephesos which I wish were found in more ideal conditions but alas they are miserable. For far younger coins I have a bright red mint fresh 1923 Lincoln that I purchased several years ago - it was found in an original roll in an SDB of an estate. It is obvious that it was in a climate controlled setting for 80+ years. Now it is a PCGS holder and intercept shield - I hope they can preserve the coin as it was for 80+ years.
Some coins copper silver etc,will not tone. some say it in the metals DNA or mix it was made from. but a dry & no humidity in the area helps!
Having said all of this, I say the OP's coin was dipped at some point in its life. :devil: Like Doug has said, TPG overlook many issues depending on the age and the series.
Some TPG's are a bit more forgiving than others. One in particular stands out since there are lots of bright white 19th century silver coins in it's holders. No further comment from me.
Still doesn't mean that we are much more of a threat to them than the previous 2000 years in the ground has been. Even white gloving them, and storing them in modern storage, I think the coins are more in danger than previously. Still, touche Mat.
In other words it's toned. The definition of and criteria for a coin to be designated as Red is that 95% or more of the coin has to be "original mint red". A "stable dark red" or reddish brown is not original mint red. Sorry, it just isn't.
Then we are talking about different things. Bright shiny mint red? No, no copper can ever remain that color. It will darken a little at the very minimum. Still red, but not shiny, new copper red. I was referring to a color of red toning that is more stable than fresh metal. Those coins I have seen, but rarely. Unprotected copper surfaces simply cannot remain unbonded that long. Chris
