1830 large or medium?

I haven't received my middle date reference book yet and the Red Book only offers so much help, so hopefully some large cent people here can help. I bought this 1830 that the dealer had marked as a medium letters piece, but I thought looked like a large letters. It has some of the characteristics of a large letter reverse such as the almost closed C in AMERICA. But some other diagnostics didn't fit the limited information I had. The pics are crummy scans that look rather grainy but they're the best I have for now. Any help will be appreciated.
Guy

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I do not have my copy of Wright or Noyes handy, but I believe that's a LL. Here's one from my collection (N-1) to compare it to:

 

That pretty much confirms it, Mike. The problem I was having was the relation between the E and D in UNITED. On some references of the LL the bottom serif of the D almost dove below the bottom of the E. I think so far the best diagnostic as far as easily identifying these is the almost closed C as opposed to the open C. Those were in my notes and this helps back that up. Thanks.
Guy

 

Here are a few medium letters for your comparison.

http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&N=51+790+231+307&Ntt=1830 medium

Note the shape of the C.

 

So much for the C diagnostic LOL. My copy of The Cent Book needs to hurry up and arrive!
Guy

 

Just went and looked for my references but was unsuccessful (just moved). Hopefully someone will spot this thread and lend a helping hand.

 

Post the obverse - looks like reverse C. Which is N-3 or N-8. The 23rd leaf is past center on the C in america.

And I am using the newcomb book.

 

I'm using the Cent Book andf it looks like Reverse D to me. My key diagnostic is the closeness of the final A to the right ribbon and the leaf tip that almost reaches the right foot of A rather than the middle or left. Check the obverse carefully. N-4 has an inner circle and is common. The other pairing has no inner circle and the 0 is a bit high. It is N-11 and is R5+. A much better find than a medium letters, though that doesn't seem to apply to 1830 with 10 LL and 1 SL (N-6) reverse (E). I guess they call it med. letters in the red book.

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1156&lotNo=7143#Photo

See how this compares?

 

It is a tough call. In my book the 1830 N-11 is crack top of UNITED STATES and bottom of F AMER then curving up thru ICA to rim below bow. I do not see that crack on the coin, but if there then yes an N-11. I also noticed the N-3 and N-8 have plain center dot, while N-11 has a minute center dot. I do not see a center dot which lends itself towards the N-11. The letter alignment is very close between reverse C and reverse D. Still want to see the obverse.

 

I'm interested in how this finally turned out as to the variety...

 

Here is the obverse, though again, the scans are crummy at best. On the date there is a small die crack that connects all the date numbers near their base. The 0 also appears to be repunched on left.

 

1830 N-4 mid die stage which makes it a large letter. There is only one small letter reverse and that in N-6. On the small letter (actually med letter) reverse the gap between the foot serifs of TAT is wide enough you could fit the upright of the T between them.

 

I concur with N-4 [3-D]. The curl extends left of the 0. Besides the other diagnostics, the N-11 Obverse 5 has a curl entirely over the 0.

 

That was the detail I could not remember. Thanks Conder.

 

Right, only the N6 is medium letters. I have a lowly one I never bothered to shoot because I thought I'd find an upgrade quickly. That was a couple of years ago and I'm still looking.

Here's a medium letters and a large letters, to compare.
Lance.

 

Yep - N-4. After I posted last night I was going thru and cliping the letter alignment between reverses C&D. It was easy to see the difference between high grade coins, but not when you get down to the worn examples. I also started playing with the darkness of the coin and you can see part of the crack on reverse D thru AMER at the base.

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I have a copy of The Cent Book coming, but Mr Wright is on vacation until after the holidays so it'll be a while getting here. So much to learn in this series, but it's a lot of fun.
Guy

 

It IS a very fun series. Common enough that many/most varieties are affordable. Yet distinct enough to actually be able to tell the differences with the naked eye (unlike many late date varieties). Absolutely my favorite series of the large cents...Mike

Lance, those are two FABULOUS reverses. Let's see the obverses!

 

It's actually easier to see the crack where it come up from the bases of the letters through the ERI and especially through the center of the C.