Hello, I am planning on buying a large cent like a coronet probably first. I was wondering besides the normal grading whats the n-3 n-something people mention. Any links or personal help will be appreciated a lot. Thanks so much, Dan
The N-3 or N whatever (S whatever on the early dates) is a catalog number based on the specific pair of dies used to strike the coin. Large cents are frequently collected by die variety or die pairing and over the years the rarities of the various varieties are fairly well accepted. Rarer varieties can command a significant premium even on a year that is considered to be common. 1822 for example, it is a common enough date. There are common varieties that are worth just the basic type coin or graysheet value. Then there is the N-9 which in VG might bring a couple hundred dollars. Or N-13 where a VG would bring several hundred dollars, or N-14 which would bring several thousand dollars (I think there are currently five N-14's known). Large cents ARE graded differently by the cent specialists though. We have something called Net Grading or sometimes EAC Grading. We start with a strict sharpness grade, and then we make deductions from the grade for problems (color, strike, porousity, scratches, rim dents etc). The question is how much to deduct because every coin is different, and each person has different likes and dislikes for various problems. One method I use is the "Would I rather have a problem free X or this coin?" method. You keep taking X down a step until you start to have a problem deciding which you would rather have and that is the Net Grade. This doesn't work if you are one of those collectors who insists on only problem free coins because everything becomes a Poor-1. Of course if you can't accept coins with problems you either don't collect early copper, or you don't have much of a collection because almost ALL early copper has some kind of problem. And if you collect by variety you will find that there are some varieties that just don't exist problem free. I'm starting to rant so I'm going to stop now.
Thanks for the explanation as I was never sure what or how some of these were being graded and while I like some of the early copper coins as well. I never really thought about the fact that the majority would be some type of problem coin based on the type of coin it is.. Guess when I look at them now, I will with a different perspective.. In a good way that is..
And if buy these already slabbed, NGC & PCGS, you need to know that when it comes ot grading the TPGs are all over the map with grading. There is no consistency whatsoever. So, if you are going to by them, you better know your coins or you'll be throwing money away left and right.
I think Conder hit on everything nicely. The earlier coppers, like he said, pretty much all have issues, and some the finest grades known are VG problem pieces. I've been into early coppers for only about five years now, but I've immersed myself pretty deep and find there's a lot of fascinating history behind the coins. Guy
Dan, Until you get your collecting/grading feet under you, I would strongly suggest you either find a mentor or post your prospective purchases here so they can be commented on by more advanced collectors. While I don't agree with GDJMSP's assessment of TPG grading (frankly, they do a better job than most collectors and for a collector like you it is far safer to buy a slabbed coin over a raw one), his concern about throwing money away on bad coins is a very valid one, IMO. Good luck from a fellow copper collector....Mike
Already good posts by people who know a lot more about large cents than me. I do recommend getting some books on them. Otherwise get some advice on the coin before you buy. How about some of these links: Read the cover page. http://www.uscents.com/coppergrade/index.html A nice little collection or two: http://www.pbase.com/miker/large_cents http://www.largecents.net/
Mike - my comments were made about large cents specifically. But I realize now that the way I worded it, it doesn't come across that way. You may however have understood that and be disagreeing anyway.
You might also want to look at the websites of some of the better copper dealers. Many of them are posted on the Early American Copper organization's Links http://www.eacs.org/links.html Look at the coins they offer and it will give you an idea of how copper specialists grade early copper coins (especially when they show both their net grade compared to a TPG grade if the coin is slabbed). They are also a great source of high quality (not necessarily high grade) coins at surprisingly reasonable prices. My avatar (1805 C-3 half cent) is net graded to EAC standards as a F-15, a long way from mint state, but one of my favorites. Best of luck in your hunt for some nice early copper.
Check out the Heritage archives, look for the Jules Reiver sales. (signature sale 390 January 2006) The second sale was his half cents and large cents. They were graded by NGC but they are also net graded by Mark Borchart to what would be considered to be EAC standards, Jules coins were not all just high grade coins so you will find a wide range of grades. Go to the Heritage archives and search for Large cents , and in the limit search to box scroll down to the Reiver Signature sale 390 Jan 2006. You will want to have a free heritage account so you can sign in and see the large images.
G, I understood you the first time, but thanks for the clarification. I will grant you that PCGS/NGC probably do worse with copper than other metals (particularly in the grey area of MA/non-MA), but they are still worlds more consistent than the average collector, in my experience. Conder, If you're suggesting using those coins and Borchart's grades to learn EAC grading, I would agree, but they were a terrible representation of TPG grading, IMO. The Heritage archives are a wonderful resource all new collectors should become familiar with, but focusing on the Reiver collection as a means to learn TPG grading is a mistake, IMO, as it is my opinion that collection was very optimistically graded by NGC.
If you are interested in the late dates, 1840 plus, a good place to start for grading is Gary Hahn's websit: http://early-copper.com/ He has a portion of the webpage which is EAC grading. It shows problem free coins from around vg7 to MS which should give you a very good idea of how strict EAC sharpness grades are. Not picking on NGC, but I just picked up a 46 which was graded xf40 by them. EAC grade would be 20/15, so the disparity can be huge. Edit, I noticed no one has mentioned it yet, so here goes... Buy the book first. If you get into these coins the standard reference books are a must, at least one for each series you like: Early - Sheldon, Noyes, Breen Middle - Wright, Noyes Late - Grellman Price guide - Copper quotes. If I had to buy only one this would be it.
I was suggesting the Reiver collection for learning EAC grading. The actual catalogs would be better though. In my opinion Heritage images still stink.
Actually I would say the more books the better. I would also throw newcomb in the middle and late dates. For the late dates I use newcomb to narrow it down, then try to use grellman to get a specific variety. Just my humble opinion. I don't own noyes, breen or wright - but I am sure more than one book could only improve ones knowledge and maybe even help when attributing coins.
