Suspicious 1766 Mexico 8 Reales

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by LostDutchman, Oct 26, 2011.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Actually, they aren't. The edge design was always added after the coin was struck.


    Yes and no. Because the edge design was added post strike it is quite common for the edge design to intrude into the denticles. The edge design could also push the denticles, by actually bending the metal, in towards the legends. Both things commonly happened.

    Yes, it can be a diagnostic of a fake, but is by no means a definitive diagnostic. This is partially because of what I noted above. But it is also because of the differences in the dies. The dies for these coin were carved, 1 by 1, by hand. So no two of them are ever identical. It is not at all unusual for some of them to have the portions of the legends closer to the denticles than others. And some may even intrude into the denticles because they were carved that way.



    Your reasoning is in error for the reasons explained above.

    I am going to post some pictures (it may take more than 1 post) of coins I used to own, all 100% genuine. Some of these will show the edge design intruding into the denticles. Others will show the legends touching or intruding into the denticles. Some will show them not doing so. And one will show an off-center 1766 M 8 reales.
     

    Attached Files:

    GDJMSP, Oct 28, 2011
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    More pics -
     

    Attached Files:

    GDJMSP, Oct 28, 2011
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Now here are pics of a couple of different 1765 M 8 reales. You can plainly see portions of the legends that intrude into the denticles, as well as portions of the edge design that intrude into the denticles. Both are 100% genuine, and 1 of them even has mint luster - which cannot be duplicated by casting.
     

    Attached Files:

    GDJMSP, Oct 28, 2011
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  5. coinman0456

    coinman0456 Coin Collector


    Spot on. I'm still unconvinced the example proposed for comment is anything but genuine.
     
    coinman0456, Oct 28, 2011
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  6. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Wonderful posts Doug. As usual you stated clearly what I was merely alluding to. I learned quite a bit too!

    Chris
     
    medoraman, Oct 28, 2011
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    I learned a few things too, but I still would not buy any such coins with denticle overlap, even if they are slabbed.
    An expert in this field some of you may be familiar with, Robert Gurney, had sent in two known and documented counterfeits of Spanish colonial dollars to NGC and both were slabbed as genuine. He also purchased a third NGC slabbed coin which was also a known contemporary counterfeit.
    The fact that some of these get past TGP's is enough to warrant hypervigilant scrutiny when looking at such coins.
     
    Numismat, Oct 28, 2011
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. tonedcoins

    tonedcoins New Member

    I say the coin is cleaned but completely authentic. Mexico City, Charles III, 8-Reales, pillar type, 1766 MF, 27.14g (KM 105).

    [​IMG]
     
    tonedcoins, Oct 28, 2011
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**


    You are absolutely correct about the need to be cautious in this area. I have a nice collection of spanish colonial coins, specifically from the Santiago, Chile mint. These are among the most scarce issues of any spanish colonial mint. The number of fakes being sold on Ebay alone is incredible. Some of them are obvious, others you just have to marvel at how good they are becoming, so much that even the better auctions houses get fooled.
     
    Eduard, Oct 29, 2011
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. kaosleeroy108

    kaosleeroy108 The Mahayana Tea Shop & hobby center

    id send it to ngc or pcgs.. just to get a idea.. i have never owned one..
     
    kaosleeroy108, Oct 29, 2011
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  11. kaosleeroy108

    kaosleeroy108 The Mahayana Tea Shop & hobby center

    see now i want one...
     
    kaosleeroy108, Oct 29, 2011
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Some of those coins I pictured with the denticle overlap, I bought from Dan Sedwick. So like I said, 100% genuine.

    But I do not disagree with you about the dangers, or the quality, of counterfeits. Nor do I disagree about some of them fooling the TPGs. And it's not just these Spanish colonial coins fooling the TPGs either. I've pointed out several examples of counterfeit Netherlands ducats that fooled the TPGs.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 29, 2011
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    First time I heard of that, would you happen to have a link to any? I'd love to get an idea of what the good fakes look like.
    Thanks.
     
    Numismat, Oct 29, 2011
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I can't take the time to dig up the to dig up the the threads right now, but I'll go you one better. Send me an email (you can do that through the forum just by clicking on my name and then selecting the appropriate link) and include your email address, and I'll send you copies of the basic diagnostics to recognize the Russian counterfeits.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 29, 2011
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Thanks! I'll definitely take you up on that offer.

    I thought that some ducats were officially struck in Russia, at least the Krause book lists them. I guess these are separate from the Russian counterfeits?
     
    Numismat, Oct 29, 2011
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  16. Honolulu Dick

    Honolulu Dick Junior Member

    Thanks for the statement that cast coins do not, saying again, do not, replicate/possess the luster found on struck/milled coins. That was my belief, also, just didn't find a way to work the thought into this thread. It is my understanding that the enormous pressure generated during striking generates enough heat to cause coin metal to flow. This results in a molecular density that produces luster, along with a coin's particular ring. Casting produces less dense coins, devoid of luster and a characteristic [sweet] ring.

    BTW, have a cast FUGIO coin [an obvious carnival prize replica] that was a throw-in during an earlier purchase. It serves to demonstrate the evolution of American coinage history. Non-collectors are pleased to learn about that little known aspect of our heritage. So, from historical interest its worth its weight in junk, horribly tarnished, cast metal. [LOL] The cast replica is ugly and dull, having no pleasant ring. Nevertheless, it serves an instructive purpose. We have a love/hate relationship going for us. How bad ids that?
     
    Honolulu Dick, Oct 29, 2011
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No those are the counterfeits. Any Netherlands ducat struck by the Russians is a counterfeit. The Russian govt. knowingly and quite intentionally counterfeited the Netherlands ducat for 100 years. The Netherlands govt. was aware of it and tried unsuccessfully through diplomatic means to get the Russians to stop, but they would not. So eventually the Netherlands stopped minting the ducat for a period of time. And eventually the Russians finally gave in and stopped.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 30, 2011
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Here is a link to one of the more recent threads - http://www.cointalk.com/t192161/

    Look closely at the reverse of the coin I posted pics of. See where the G in LEGEM is positioned ? That diagnostic is specific to the Russian counterfeits. On the Russian counterfeits that G is pretty well centered under the L and G in BELGII above it.

    On the genuine Netherlands coins the G in LEGEM is moved to the right, more under the L in BELGII. Like on this coin below. That is one of the easiest diagnostics to remember and the easiest to recognize on the Russian counterfeits.
     

    Attached Files:

    GDJMSP, Oct 30, 2011
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Great knowledge, thanks for making that clear. =)
     
    Numismat, Oct 30, 2011
    #38 + Quote Reply
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