Chinese Counterfeiter Producing High Quality Fakes

God what a mangled bunch of gobbledegook. It is taking me awhile to wrap my head around this.

As I read it it refers to the person who is planning or executing the fraud, and if he places the material with the postal service "for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do," then he would be guilty of violating this statute. So unless returning the coins somehow allowed him to further his scheme to commit the fraud of obtaining property under false pretenses I don't see it as being illegal. (Now if he planned to dispose of them by sending them somewhere else then it might apply.) It might be a stretch but you might apply it to someone who has a scheme to fraudulently acquire property (the false coins) and dispose of them by other means and have them placed into the hands of the postal service. But in that case the scheme is still being run by the person here. So it may be construed that this law applies to the person here ordering the coins than he doesn't intend to pay for.

 

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Legal convolution!!

I believe your understanding to be correct in the majority. It is my understanding that this "Mail Fraud" statute initially defines the PERPETRATOR by intent (i.e. acquisition by fraud), chattel (e.g. money/property), means to acquire (pretenses/representations/promises), action (e.g. promise "to dispose"), mechanism (i.e. U.S.P.S. services), and then states maximum Federal Penalties. M.H.O., hereby soliciting and accepting objective correction.

I believe an easily understood appropriate violation would be: One offering to discard ("dispose of"), for an associate, known counterfeit currency, being transferred via U.S.P.S., with intent to publicly distribute. This offense (acquisition of counterfeit material being sold in U.S.), or variation, is currently being zealously prosecuted in numerous U.S. jurisdictions. The legal action avoids the international aspects of jurisdiction and legality discussed argumentum ad nauseam in this thread.

Just my opinion/understanding. :thumb:

 

Regardless of what his intentions might be, what he is doing is willfully ordering merchandise which he has no intention of paying for via credit card chargebacks.

This is specific, its targeted, its intentional and its wrong.

I also find it very difficult to believe that the seller, regardless of venue, is willingly participating in this activity since its his/her product and listing fee's which is costing him/her money. I could see this occuring once before the blocking began since the Chinese not are as stupid as the poster would have us believe.

 

Guys, he says that he stamps the word "copy" on the back. Once he's done that, they are legal in the US.

He can keep them and sell them as replicas (in which case doing a charge is fraud), or he can inform the seller what he's done and offer to ship them back. Doing a charge back without offering to send back the replicas is also somewhat questionable.

 

Panties in a twist, panties in a twist, panties in a twist who has there panties in a twist???

Sorry guys but I found this thread boring so I decided to troll/ play devils advocate with you guys. For all you who don't understand previous posts were a sham intended to illicit a response.
As a unemployed college grad with 250k in student loans I have no credit, so American express black is BS
I'm addition repeated chargebacks would be suspicious
So congrats to the poster who called my bluff

Anyways as for fakes I live near SF Chinatown which is flooded with them. About 95% of them are crap. They're offmetal, off weight wrong details, too details etc.
Ways to catch counterfeits? Knowledge as previously stated.

I've seen several 90% fakes from china usually they're off as well.
Fakes/counterfeits have been around for as long as coins existed and will stay around.
At least previous fakes were good, Chinese ones are just crappy

19lyds and Jhoring hit the nail on the head, no reason to run around arms flailing sky falling

As for fellow members congrats on still being ethical, I apologize if your blood is boiling but it was interesting to see your responses.

As for mailing letters to ppl's houses, I figured it would be a dead give away that my post was bs, that would be absurd.
Anyways let the shannanigans carry on and I'll politely leave this thread

PS aliexpress is actually good with removing listings, I've never purchased fakes from there but when bored I have flagged their carson city Morgan dollar roll listings.

Have a great day

 

Well, I guess it was all in fun... but he certainly did stir the pot. I think that happens quite a bit, but I'm OK with it. I try not to take my hobby too seriously. I know some others may not feel that way.

 

mmm.

 

I know its a one time thing
However some of the responses were very insightful and detailed.

Plus in all fairness 19lyds caught on after the first post

 

What rubbish!

That's like saying that robbing a bank is alright as long as you return the money immediately. The wrong is in the act, not in what follows afterward.

EDIT: above posted before reading the last few posts.

 

This is a very common occurrence on this and all other forums. If anything, the guy at least admitted to it, which is more than I can say for some other posters.

Also, sensationalism such as this often does elicit some of the more insightful knowledge sharing that goes on. People are just more proactive when they're pizzed off. =)

 

Other than the last series of posts, this thread has been extremely interesting in that it revealed a diverse set of opinions regarding the reality and significance of Chinese counterfeits.

There are those who:

1. Feel there is no counterfeit problem and that Chinese coin makers are simply conducting a legit business that doesn't harm anyone. Nobody is trying to cheat anybody. Chill.

2. Feel Chinese fakes are crap and easily detected, that counterfeiters are stupid and incompetent as they've always been, and the problem isn't worth worrying about. And besides we can drive them out of business by scamming them back.

3. Know Chinese fakes are getting better but are confident we can detect them 100% of the time as we've always been able to do in the past using the same diagnostics and techniques we've always used. Tough, but no problem.

4. Know that high-quality, hard-to-detect 90% silver Chinese coins and fake slabs are being made in large quantities and are concerned, but we are confident that buying primary TPG slabs from trusted dealers is sufficient protection.

5. Believe that some of the most recent Chinese fakes are virtually undetectable by all conventional diagnostics as proven by recent experiments. Even dealers and TPGs cannot spot many of the fakes. The sky isn't falling, but there are some very low-hanging heavy clouds.

6. Feel this situation seriously threatens the hobby and are thinking about getting out. The sky is falling.

Personally, I'm somewhere between #4 and #5, leaning more toward #4 at the moment.

 

Was a good thread till your antics came to play , I don't mind people having fun . But I for one will never trust what you're saying in any future post .

 

I immediately realized Twinturbo's initial message stating he has bought thousands of dollars worth of replicas from Chinese sellers was bogus for a number of reasons but the immediate hint was when he said has done it for months to the tune of $15k with $11k from one seller alone. I legitimately disputed a $60 motel charge in June and the process to correct that one charge took alot of time and an "investigation" from the credit card company. American Express would have quickly caught on to what Twinturbo was doing and he would have been in hot water with not only them but possibly the authorities as well.

I bought quite a few Chinese replicas a few years ago strictly for my personal use and collection. I liked how I could fill the holes of key date coins that I would otherwise never have been able to fill. In my IHC album alone I was able to fill in the 1877, 1909S and semi-keys with some very nice looking replicas that at first glance are only distinguishable from the genuine coins in the album because they are in higher grade of condition than the average common date originals in the album. Like I've said before, if the Chinese get so skilled at making replicas that no one can distinguish from genuine even after weighing and examining under a microscope, where is the harm? No one is the wiser and ignorance is bliss...

 

First of all, selling modern replicas that do not have the word COPY incused into them is a violation of US law, that is, The Hobby Protection Act.

I personally have nothing against buying and selling replicas as long as they comply with this law. In fact, I have quite a few reproductions that are faithful in every respect to the originals EXCEPT that the reproductions ALL carry the COPY stamp.

Finally, can you not see how flooding the market with fake, mass-produced indistinguishable replicas of rare coins whose values are based on their RARITY, among other things, can not help but have a negative impact on the hobby? If I pay $500 for an 1877 Indian Head cent, I darn well want it to be an ORIGINAL, US Mint-made coin, rather than some imitation that was produced by counterfeiters for less than $1.

 

These sellers are in China where US law and the Hobby Protection Act is void and non-existant. I would never sell or give away the replicas that I have bought from them so having COPY stamped on them is irrelevant to me. I don't like my replicas having COPY stamped on them anyways as I want them to blend right in with my personal albums. That is the whole point as to why I bought them to begin with. I totally see where you're coming from with rare coins but if the Chinese infused a few fantastic fakes here and there making otherwise unattainable and elite $500 coins more affordable to the common man than that is just dandy and a benefit to society as a whole.

 

Basically, what you are doing is abetting counterfeiters, yes counterfeiters, because every single US coin produced by any of the US mints from 1793 onward is considered to be legal tender; thus, making reproductions of said coins without incusing the word COPY, per US law, is counterfeiting legal currency. Also, knowingly importing non-complying coins into the United States is a violation of the Hobby Protection Act. It doesn't matter that they're made in China-- what does matter is you are wittingly importing US coins that you know are counterfeit and are not marked as such.

And even though you claim to have no intention of selling your non-complying reproductions as genuine items, what is to stop unscrupulous people from passing off similar fakes as the real McCoy? What is to stop someone, for example, from buying a bunch of "1877" Indian Head pennies from Chinese Counterfeits Unlimited, carrying them around in his pocket for a year or so to give them a more authentic look, and then passing them off as genuine coins?

 

I'll just point out something I posted a while back: the enormity of counterfeiting has made me take two steps back from seriously collecting coins again.

At this point, I'm buying stuff from the mint. No way I'm collecting silver dollars!

 

To you sure, but what happens when you die? There is a very good chance that the fakes that you bought will be sold off by your heir to the unknowledgeable as genuine coins.