Chinese Counterfeiter Producing High Quality Fakes

Sorta takes the fun out of collecting when you have to resort to "forensic coin analysis". I miss the 1950's more every day.

 

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An Apparent Misunderstanding!!

I, probably as you, have apparently failed to advance my understanding of easily viewed current technologies, their seemingly instantaneous diagnostic capabilities, and application into our modern vocabulary.

My understanding of the term evident, or self-evident, is generally that of past dictionaries, namely literally "clear to the vision".

I'm apparently outdated in my understandings of current definitions of easily, apparent and evident.

When one must understand/apply procedures entailed in Forensic Files, Extreme Forensics, or CSI, to observe something defined as obvious, I have erred in my understandings and declarations.

I'm just an old fool, understanding that OBVIOUS lack of detection is when one holds a copy coin in one hand, a certified "authentic" coin in the other, without viewing significant differences. I understood that after a specification verification and an open study with knowledgeable individuals (allowing examination with a loupe) without perceiving significant variation, that differences weren't EVIDENT.

I probably need additional education, appreciating the assistance of others in expanding my knowledge and correcting my error of understanding. I stand corrected!! :thumb:

 

It's a shame that it has come to this.

 

Yes it's very sad indeed! And the saddest part is that good natured people may end up selling a fake honestly believing it to be real. It seems like counterfeiting technology is going to get better and better until a reliable method of analyzing them becomes too expensive for most people to access (like an electron micrograph, lol).

 

Actually your previous methods are still very much relevant. You still need to have a genuine one in one hand and a fake on the other. Only instead of a 10x loupe you are looking through a microscope.
After examining a bunch of pairs of fake and genuine examples of the same coin type, you will get an idea of what to look for in order to then identify fake from real without having a comparison example.

 

Political Correctness plays a part in enabling the counterfeiters.

I have been denounced (not here but elsewhere) as a "racist, globalist, reactionary, xenophobic" and a whole bunch of other names I either can't remember or don't understand. My "crime" was referring to fakes coins produced by Chinamen, in China, on Chinese presses, in Chinese factories, with the connivance of the Chinese Government as...... CHINESE fakes. It's racist apparently, so is referring to them as Communists. The double-think needed must give these poor people migraines!

When I asked if the in-crowd would be getting excited if I refered to fakes produced by Germans, on German presses etc. etc. as GERMAN fakes, I got denounced again as a capitalist lackey or some such trendy nonsense and threatened with expulsion.

Pretending that the fakes are being produced by evil white supremacists as part of a plot to enslave and exploit the third world isn't going to help any. I don't buy coins sourced from China because of the overwhelming likeliehood that is a fake, if that makes me a racist then cry me a river.

Yes, there are fakes produced elsewhere in the world and by people of all colors. But nowhere else is it being done on such a scale and with such sophistication. The cheap, cast fakes produced elsewhere from base metals can be spotted by Ray Charles, however even after decades of coin collecting I can't tell a good quality Chinese coin from an original. I wish I could but I can't and it worries me. I've already stopped buying silver dollars because of this issue, how many potential coin collectors are being driven of by the Chinese crooks? Am I alone in seeing the death knell of Numismatiacs at the hands of these thieves?

It takes two to tango so the answer is obvious, boycott Chinese products - all of them. Don't trade with eBay sellers who include "replicas" in their stock. Don't buy the poisonous dry wall, the toys painted with lead paint, the bottled drinks with benzene as an added bonus, or any of the other millions of shoddy and dangerous products they dump on us. The Chinese Government won't act until they see the balance of trade start to shift, our own Governments won't act because they are bought and paid for by the Yen. It's up to "We the People".

For the benefit of any lurking PC types, I have nothing against the Chinese except for their predatory trading practices and nasty government. I don't like crooks of any color, their "Chinesenessism" is purely incidental. If you feel so strongly about it why don't you just feel absolutely free to order a double amount of "genuine silver dollar, very rare coin!" to make up for the ones I won't be buying?

 

If only eBay had an option to block sellers from certain countries, just as they have the option to block buyers from certain countries.

I would block sellers from China, Israel and most of Eastern Europe, though all for different reasons.

I don't think there is any racism to it. This does not reflect on the culture or people themselves, only to what is being marketed by certain individuals within it.

In general I try not to buy coins that are being sold by an international seller in that coins country of origin. Just seems that the good stuff they keep or sell within the country and use ebay to unload coins with issues, and in a way that the issues are not readily visible or recognizable until you have the coin in hand. Sending it back in a way that you can prove it was received cost more than most coins and these offenders rely on that little fact.

 

As a Morgan collector, I am often astounded by the sheer combined numbers of Morgans for sale at any point in time by local dealers, national dealers, on eBay, on Heritage, Teletrade, and other auctions, by advertisers in CoinAge and CoinWorld, not to mention the huge quantities that are quietly held by collectors. I can't help but wonder if we might one day realize the extent to which counterfeiters have become successful only when the supply of Morgans becomes clearly and significantly greater than known mintages. Just thinkin' and worryn' out loud.

 

Uh, according to some quick mintage figures I pulled and excel, total mintage of the Morgan Dollar series was 656,999,901 pieces.

 

Uh, it is estimated that the 1918 Pittman Act recalled over 270 million for melting. Around 47% of all Morgans dated prior to 1921 were destroyed. Estimates are that only about 15%-17% of all Morgans exist today. That makes it about 100 million that are still around -- still a large number. If we ever see the supply significantly exceed that number, we know we have a problem. Hopefully we will get some indication before that occurs. My question is, are we beginning to see it now?

 

I'm aware of the great melt. But I don't think you realize how many coins that is and how long it would take counterfeiters to produce 500 million high-quality counterfeits. Surely not in your lifetime.

 

In the case of Japan, at least, the domestic market seems to be pretty saturated with Tokyo Olympics 1000-yen coins, Meiji-era silver coins in VF-EF condition, 100-yen silver coins, World War II coinage, and feudal era cash coins and mini gold ingots (2 shu ban kin), so it would be logical for Japanese dealers to seek out an international customer base who might be interested in such coins.

 

Japan is one of the countries that I don't see having this problem. I do see it especially concentrated on just a handful of other countries. These include China (fakes), Israel (coins with "hidden" issues) and ex-Soviet bloc states (dug up coins that have been cleaned and then oiled to improve surface appearance).

 

And the Chinese sellers on eBay have 600,000,000 stockpiled there just waiting to be sold!

 

First Off, the coin in the listing is an obvious fake primarily due to the "grainy texture" of the fields.

Second off, the coin in the listing is absolutely no different than what has been produced in the past. In other words, no laser etching.

Third off, these folks make a living off of producing "replica coins" which is totally legitimate in their country of origin. These "replicas" are easily detectable and produced in such a way as to make them easily detectable, COPY stamp or Not. They are NOT in the business of creating coins which are of such HIGH quality that they could not be distinguished from the originals as the leap from Morgan Dollars to Presidential Dollars would be very short. I'm of the opinion that the manufacturer's objective is to enable collector's, American or not, to fill the holes in their albums. I believe that given their equipment and skills, that if these folks wanted to produce "exact" duplicates, they really could but then, thats not theior business. Their business is "replica's".

Fourth off, these manufacturers are not the problem, the problem is the greedy American entrepenuers that are selling these as "original". Recent busts by the authorities validate this in that Coin Dealers and Pawn Shop owners are paying "way less than melt" for seemingly authentic "rare" coins and then whining when they "discover" that the coins are counterfeit. Exactly what kind of dealer, in all honesty, would pay $20 for an 1804 Dollar? Thats where the problem is.

Fifth off, there is a tendency for those that know little about these replica's to feed a fear frenzy with statements like "These guys are getting really Good" and "They've upgraded their equipment!" and "These are so good they even fool dealers". News flash, some dealers don't really have a clue while other do, yet for financial greedy, they choose to ignore the clues! As for getting eBay listings cancelled, whether it's eBay or a Business traveler, the coins will make an appearance in America since this is what these manufacturers do for their business (fully legitimate). Cancelling the eBay listings does nothing more than elimiate the product from eBay as it's still available for sale from a private web site or in the manufacturers store. It IS the collectors responsibility to know how to identify these replica coins and if you do not know how, then YOU really need to learn because they are not going to go away.

What I am trying to say, is that the dealers that were fooled into thinking these were genuine, simply did not look closely enough or were just not paying attention. These coins are easily detectable, rgardless of what some would like you to believe.

Personally, I am not afraid.

 

The Morgan Dollar is possibly one of the most over-rated collectible coin series as, with a few minor exceptions, the coins are readily available for purchase. I'd go so far as to state that, even though the Eisenhower Dollar mintages exceeded the Morgan Dollar mintages by 50 million coins, there are more far more Morgans available for purchase at anyone time than there are Eisenhower Dollars.

And yes, Eisenhower Dollars are "counterfeited" right along with everything else.

Again, I am not worried.

 

While I do not doubt that fact that you report as many listings as you can, I do suspect the 250,000 figure to be a bit over blown for the following reason:

250,000 listings at an average of 2 minutes per listing would equate to 500,000 minutes of reporting time.
Boil the numbers down and it equals 347 days (24x7), non-stop, of doing noithing but reporting listings.

I simply cannot believe that figure.

As for reporting 500 listings today, again, the figures do not add up since thaere are only 1,440 minutes in a 24 four time period (24x60) and at 2 minutes per listing, you want folks to believe that you've spent 8.3 hours today reporting listings?

What I can believe is that your "guess" is merely that, a "guess". And a very BIG "guess".

 

To me, this sounds like another "guess" since I know of no eBay sellers or any other sellers that would not block you from bidding or buying on the first incident of a "chargeback" much less some seller that would allow you to do $11,000 in chargebacks.

Unless of course, the seller is assembling evidence for an internet fraud charge in which case, given this post, you'll not have much of a defense as, despite your intentions, you've been commiting fraud with your actions.

 

Using a single press at 60 coins per minute and working 8 hrs a day.....47 years.

Add a second press...24 years. Work 12 hrs a day... 31 years for a single press of 16 years for two presses. (Note this is less time than it took the US Mint to do the same thing.)

 

Well, after reading your blurb, I feel much more secure.